#331  
Old 11-04-2016, 11:19 PM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Certainly not 6 or 7.

My thought about par-2s starts with honesty, but doesn't end there. Even as a fading duffer, I play holes on courses in local tournaments that I consider par-2s. I know if I don't get a 2, I'm losing ground to the competition. They are, to me, practical par-2s, regardless of how they're labeled. And changing the label won't change the holes.

Par-2s can be interesting with a tricky green, perhaps the threat of OB, or a tunnel or low ceiling or other factors that make them a little dangerous. They can also, of course, be terribly boring, especially for watching top players. It depends on the hole.

I am a minority fan of "tough par" holes, in general---holes where par, the expected score, perhaps the most common score, is good, where there aren't many birdies, but a risk of bogeys or worse if you don't execute. Survival holes. Holes that might produce a scoring average of 3.3, or 4.3, or......yes, 2.3. To my taste, these are good, challenging, grit-your-teeth holes. And they balance all the "birdie" holes on the course, where par may be common but there are a lot more birdies than bogeys.

Of course, they violate the Inalienable Right to Birdie, which is part of the anti-Par-2 campaign, and a general objection to these "tough par" holes.

I don't want a course full of them, but I like some, just for balance. As best I can tell, I'm pretty much alone in that.
The best thing about having a debate discussion with older guys is that they arc towards rational thought and compromise. More fun and profitable.
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  #332  
Old 11-04-2016, 11:21 PM
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Right, gdub. I don't refer to my "personal par", or score in relation to it, either.

But if a hole can be said to have an expected score for my skill level, it can be said to have one for top pros. And that might be a 2. And it might even be a 2, and not a bad hole.

I don't know why top pros would particularly care how par is set on a given hole.

But from the perspective of the sport, if we're going to have par, I think we should define it in the best way possible. And there's no doubt we're going to have it. It's not terribly important, by why not have the best par possible? One that means something?

From the perspective of disc golf as a spectator sport, a limited perspective but where this thread begins, there are some small but real advantages to par fairly closely reflecting what the top pros are expected to shoot.
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  #333  
Old 11-04-2016, 11:23 PM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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Originally Posted by Didn'tSeeThatTree View Post
You make some good points.

I totally agree that disc golf can be made more challenging, and some courses used for major tournaments should be more challenging. But there has to be a limit.

I have to respectfully disagree when you say "Disc golf isn't easier or harder than Ball Golf". I stand by my point that disc golf is easier than ball golf. In disc golf you are throwing a disc into a relatively large basket. In ball golf you are taking a long crooked stick, and trying to hit a tiny ball into a tiny hole. They are just different... To me comparing par for the two is apples vs. oranges.

I think the beautiful thing about disc golf is it can be fun and inviting in a way that ball golf can't, but also have compelling professional competition. Best of both worlds IMHO

As for the grow the sport movement I wish it nothing but success, but I would argue that par has a minor part to play. The bigger issue, to me anyway, is the perception that it isn't a compelling competitive sport...you know the whole "hippies throwing Frisbees in the woods" thing. No offence to any hippies out there

The best players win and the competition is compelling as hell. The growth will come.
Nothing here I really disagree with. Question though, why do you think the BG hole isn't two feet wide and three deep? I'll stick with my notion that DG is easier because we make it that way. Personally, I'm advocating for a return to the tone pole. As with David, thanks for the rational discussion, lots of fun.
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  #334  
Old 11-04-2016, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
The best thing about having a debate discussion with older guys is that they arc towards rational thought and compromise. More fun and profitable.
I'm in the odd spot of co-owning a private course, where we have to name a par on holes (because it's part of the penalty process for missing holes at tournaments), and at the same time thinking it's not terribly important. I'm trying to memorize what it is on 3 layouts, because visitors keep asking, but I invariably have to add up the 4s and 5s before I can tell them. And I live here.

But no one's broadcasting events from here, so there are no interim scores or players on different holes, for which it matters. Nor do we have enough 1000-rated players, or 1020+, to know for sure.
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  #335  
Old 11-04-2016, 11:59 PM
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So I guess the answer to the OP's question: "Is 36 down OK?" is that there are so many considerations and opinions in setting par more in line with elite level play, that, even though it's not ideal, it's OK as long as the lowest score wins.
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  #336  
Old 11-05-2016, 12:08 AM
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So I guess the answer to the OP's question: "Is 36 down OK?" is that there are so many considerations and opinions in setting par more in line with elite level play, that, even though it's not ideal, it's OK as long as the lowest score wins.
I think that was his conclusion.
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  #337  
Old 11-05-2016, 12:13 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by gdub58 View Post
...
Point is, I don't need a system to determine a "correct par" for me. ...
But whole categories of people do. Including spectators and those playing a course for the first time, or competitors wondering how players on the other course in a tournament are doing. That's who we're trying to serve as best we can.
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  #338  
Old 11-05-2016, 11:26 AM
Didn'tSeeThatTree Didn'tSeeThatTree is offline
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Nothing here I really disagree with. Question though, why do you think the BG hole isn't two feet wide and three deep? I'll stick with my notion that DG is easier because we make it that way. Personally, I'm advocating for a return to the tone pole. As with David, thanks for the rational discussion, lots of fun.
http://golf.about.com/od/historyofgolf/f/holesize.htm

Interesting article on the size of a ball golf hole.

Pretty arbitrary haha...

I'm guessing here, but disc golf is probably set on the basket dimensions. There are so many courses that changing seems impossible.
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  #339  
Old 11-05-2016, 12:28 PM
Didn'tSeeThatTree Didn'tSeeThatTree is offline
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Deleted duplicate post

Last edited by Didn'tSeeThatTree; 11-05-2016 at 12:29 PM. Reason: Deleted duplicate post
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  #340  
Old 11-05-2016, 01:56 PM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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http://golf.about.com/od/historyofgolf/f/holesize.htm

Interesting article on the size of a ball golf hole.

Pretty arbitrary haha...

I'm guessing here, but disc golf is probably set on the basket dimensions. There are so many courses that changing seems impossible.
Baskets and BG holes seem to be arbitrary, but only to a point. My two foot wide BG hole example serves a purpose, no one does it because that size of a hole would make the game a mockery. Guys would hit buts from 60 feet at a higher frequency than we do.

There are basket standards at PDGA.com. Height, width etc. There has been a progression though. We've continually tried to make baskets catch better and have apparently succeeded. However, there was just an event in Idaho where they used the narrower practice baskets by DD. It's a different game.

Your notion that changing every course would be impossible is correct. But no one is suggesting that. Just like no one would suggest changing the cups at every ball golf course in the world. Instead you set a standard for your Majors, four or five events. What casual courses do, and should do is a different kettle of fish altogether.
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