#11  
Old 06-12-2019, 01:08 PM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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Originally Posted by ballgolfconvert View Post
Coming into disc golf from a ball golf professional history, I do not understand what problems you have with the amateur side of disc golf. I think the amateur side of disc golf is thriving with an abundance of opportunities to compete in leagues, tournaments, etc.

What particularly do have an issue with when it comes to amateurs and how the PDGA has handled them?
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
He didn't say he had a problem with the amateur side of the game, he said he thinks the sport missed the boat on amateurism. No one is arguing the game isn't growing and thriving in a lot of ways. Just that it could be different and still grow (perhaps more/faster?).

Unlike most sports, from a competitive standpoint, our pro side came first. Most other sports evolved from a game to a friendly competition to eventually players making a living (or at least earning an income) from the game. So unlike those sports, our amateur tournament scene has largely been motivated by "what can I win" rather than "I just want to win". As one of our wisest posters here puts it, we tend to try to bribe players into amateur competition with promises of prizes and player packs rather than enticing them for the spirit of competition.
It would be informative if Biscoe defined how he thinks the am side has been mismanaged? Mismanaged may be too strong a word, since I'm not sure what he is thinking.
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  #12  
Old 06-12-2019, 01:11 PM
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ChrisWoj ChrisWoj is offline
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Originally Posted by Dcinmd View Post
And the opposite would be looking at the AAU/summer league competitions. The amount of money that parents spend on kids these days is a bit crazy.
I was referring specifically to the high school and collegiate programs in disc golf that are growing, not other sports.
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Old 06-12-2019, 01:32 PM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Do you have a reference time for when the am divisions were created? Thanks.
Unfortunately I do not- they pre-existed my involvement. I think the first Am Worlds was 89 but that is the extent of it.

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Old 06-12-2019, 01:35 PM
John Rock John Rock is offline
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My first real tournament was a John Houck event in San Antonio in 1987. Freestyle and distance. My partner and I were the only Ams. So am events have been around since at least then.
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Old 06-12-2019, 01:38 PM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
It would be informative if Biscoe defined how he thinks the am side has been mismanaged? Mismanaged may be too strong a word, since I'm not sure what he is thinking.
Post #6 pretty well sums up my thoughts. Why is there a universal expectation (codified by the PDGA) that we need to bribe players to play? How did it get that way to begin with?

With no actual reference how it got this way I have no opinion whether anything has been mismanaged or not. I have certainly contributed over my years of running events to the continuation of the status quo.

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Old 06-12-2019, 01:39 PM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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My first real tournament was a John Houck event in San Antonio in 1987. Freestyle and distance. My partner and I were the only Ams. So am events have been around since at least then.
were you compensated for playing?
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Old 06-12-2019, 01:59 PM
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Three Putt Three Putt is offline
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Unfortunately I do not- they pre-existed my involvement. I think the first Am Worlds was 89 but that is the extent of it.
From what I could gather, Ed had decided to shut down the PDGA (not a shocker at the time as the IFA also had shut down and the money to run both had been coming from the same place) but he was convinced to turn it over to the players instead. That was in 1984. Ed ran it through '86 with a "board" of players in a transition period and it was fully turned over to this players board for 1987. My understanding was that Am membership happened at the same time, that it started with the "new PDGA" in 1987 that was fully in the control of the players.

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Old 06-12-2019, 02:02 PM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
Post #6 pretty well sums up my thoughts. Why is there a universal expectation (codified by the PDGA) that we need to bribe players to play? How did it get that way to begin with?

With no actual reference how it got this way I have no opinion whether anything has been mismanaged or not. I have certainly contributed over my years of running events to the continuation of the status quo.
Thanks for your answers, interesting topic.


I guess that I'm not sure I agree with this statement, "In short I have an issue with the idea that there is no inherent value placed upon organized competition in and of itself by players, promoters, or the PDGA..."

I've never felt bribed. In most cases, I don't even take some of the free materials offered. If the disc isn't one I regularly use, I leave it behind. I quiet simply have never taken into account the payout or the gifts when deciding to play. That said, it is clear that in some of the big events, GBO and Ledgestone, the gift is a huge motivator. Beyond those events, is it really true that a large percentage of ams only play because they are getting a gift disc? And I am quite aware of the participation trophy phenomena. I guess what I'm asking is, why do you, or folks in general, think the bribe is effective or even if it is effective? And I assure you, I don't know.

The mechanics of payout would seem to necessitate the bribe though. It is the float on the am payout and gifts that contributes to the funding of the pro payout, or at least that's what I've always thought. In fact, if all you had was a pro payout with only pro entry fees, that would essentially be gambling, at least as Bruce Brakel once defined it. And by his thinking, that is illegal in some states. You need added cash from somewhere to move out of the, "it's gambling into something else." I wonder if those motivations weren't at play?

Last, if John Houck did play a significant role in the process, a reminder, he was once Innova's main retailer in the central area of the country. It might simply have been a way to move merchandise, maybe even an Innova requested phenomena?

It has always seemed to me that Innova had a great deal of say in a number of practices in the sport. It would definitely be in the manufacturers interests to have a mandated plastic payout scheme.

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Old 06-12-2019, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Three Putt View Post
From what I could gather, Ed had decided to shut down the PDGA (not a shocker at the time as the IFA also had shut down and the money to run both had been coming from the same place) but he was convinced to turn it over to the players instead. That was in 1984. Ed ran it through '86 with a "board" of players in a transition period and it was fully turned over to this players board for 1987. My understanding was that Am membership happened at the same time, that it started with the "new PDGA" in 1987 that was fully in the control of the players.
I swear I once heard that the control was wrested from him? Gossip though.
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  #20  
Old 06-12-2019, 02:11 PM
ballgolfconvert ballgolfconvert is offline
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
Unfortunately I do not- they pre-existed my involvement. I think the first Am Worlds was 89 but that is the extent of it.
One of the last rounds before playing again this year, was in an amateur tourney at Kentwood (Raleigh) in 1986. I think it costs me $2 to play and competition was the only reason to play. So amateur play has been around since at least then.

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