#41  
Old 02-21-2019, 05:49 PM
zontar zontar is offline
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Cheetah!
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  #42  
Old 02-21-2019, 06:33 PM
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F. Howl F. Howl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claytoon42 View Post
So, essentially the Valk kicked off the rim wars. It was a race to get the rims wider, the discs faster, while stating in specs. ...
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Originally Posted by Three Putt View Post
The "wing war" is a kinda weird thing since the company that really pushed the envelope there was ignored and it really didn't seem to effect what Innova was doing until the very end. ....
I've heard the Cruiser (approved in 1987) was the first disc to take a relatively big leap in rim width. The Valkyrie just increased the existing rim width from 1.8 (several discs of the era) to 1.9. The Cruiser pushed it from 1.3 to 1.7, 3 years earlier.

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  #43  
Old 02-21-2019, 06:53 PM
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Three Putt Three Putt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F. Howl View Post
I've heard the Cruiser (approved in 1987) was the first disc to take a relatively big leap in rim width. The Valkyrie just increased the existing rim width from 1.8 (several discs of the era) to 1.9. The Cruiser pushed it from 1.3 to 1.7, 3 years earlier.
The thing with the Cruiser/Windstar was that it didn't lead to anything. It was the first large winged disc and the first small diameter/big wing driver, which makes it the starting point for basically every driver people throw today. It's not the ancestor of any of them, though. It was a failed experiment. It was a disc that showed up and died, nothing based off it came around after. The idea doesn't come back for another 3-4 years. The small diameter/big wing driver idea staying in production probably goes back to the Whippet.

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  #44  
Old 02-21-2019, 08:12 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Streets View Post
Would you say Innova's patent expiring led to the smaller brand explosion?
Without question that's what led to the exponential increase in manufacturers. And that patent expired in 2003.

On the PDGA approved disc list, there are 11 manufacturers that had approved discs prior to 1/1/2004. Of those, two were out of business by 2004, one was Wham-o which mostly made discs not subject to Innova's patent, and three had some or all of their discs molded by Innova. That leaves four companies producing discs on a patent license from Innova: Discraft, Gateway, Lightning, and Aerobie (they started producing the Arrow and the Epic in 2003...might have actually been the first to avoid the Innova patent).

After the patent expired for sure, Ching broke off from Innova to make their own discs (2004), Discwing debuted the Quarter K (2005), and in 2006, a whole bunch of companies emerged: Latitude 64, Pacific Cycle (the first of the ****ty Franklin-style discs), Quest AT, Snap, RPM, Discmania. Then in 2007 there was 1080 and Daredevil. In 2009, when the MVP Ion was approved, Westside and Vibram also debuted their first discs.

So within five years of the patent expiring, the number of total brands on the approved list more than doubled and the number of active brands not produced by Innova tripled. Seems like the expired patent was far and away the biggest catalyst for the increased number of manufacturers, not any one success story.

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  #45  
Old 02-21-2019, 09:53 PM
Hyzflip10 Hyzflip10 is offline
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Wow, reading this thread really takes me back to days when the Cheetah, KC 9x Eagle, JLS and XL were THE distance drivers to carry. I stopped playing in 2002 when Innova and Discraft were the two big players with a handful of other companies. When I started again in 2015, there were just too many companies and discs to choose from so I picked the best company with the simplest lineup, and settled on Vibram. Although rubber was not a game changer, I had decent luck and played well with them, until the winter when they decided to get wonky on me.

For me personally the game changer was the Axiom Clash. I found it sitting on the course, unmarked, and like the way it threw and felt. It seemed to fit my throwing style. Nobody claimed the disc so i kept it. Then I found and was given a few more MVP / Axiom discs and had similar luck with them. When the winter ended they stayed in my bag. Now I throw mostly MVP/Axiom, with the occasional off-brand mid thrown into the mix. I don't know or care if gyro makes that much of a difference but they seem to fit my throwing style.

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  #46  
Old 02-21-2019, 09:56 PM
DanJon DanJon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingus View Post
I vote Ion. Ions started overmolds as a serious thing, and also started the online fanboy viral marketing methodology. Without the Ion getting started on this board, we would never have the majority of these other startup disc brands.

Talk about online fanboy.

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  #47  
Old 02-21-2019, 10:06 PM
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ru4por ru4por is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Without question that's what led to the exponential increase in manufacturers. And that patent expired in 2003.

On the PDGA approved disc list, there are 11 manufacturers that had approved discs prior to 1/1/2004. Of those, two were out of business by 2004, one was Wham-o which mostly made discs not subject to Innova's patent, and three had some or all of their discs molded by Innova. That leaves four companies producing discs on a patent license from Innova: Discraft, Gateway, Lightning, and Aerobie (they started producing the Arrow and the Epic in 2003...might have actually been the first to avoid the Innova patent).

After the patent expired for sure, Ching broke off from Innova to make their own discs (2004), Discwing debuted the Quarter K (2005), and in 2006, a whole bunch of companies emerged: Latitude 64, Pacific Cycle (the first of the ****ty Franklin-style discs), Quest AT, Snap, RPM, Discmania. Then in 2007 there was 1080 and Daredevil. In 2009, when the MVP Ion was approved, Westside and Vibram also debuted their first discs.

So within five years of the patent expiring, the number of total brands on the approved list more than doubled and the number of active brands not produced by Innova tripled. Seems like the expired patent was far and away the biggest catalyst for the increased number of manufacturers, not any one success story.
Good post, JC. Very interesting.

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  #48  
Old 02-22-2019, 03:24 AM
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Meillo Meillo is offline
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Were throwing styles and new approaches to holes more game changing than new discs? Or were some throws only possible with new discs, insofar that the discs opened new lines to approach holes, like over the top and such?
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  #49  
Old 02-22-2019, 08:16 AM
curmudgeonDwindle curmudgeonDwindle is offline
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nice thread for those wishing to indulge themselves

an article with some nuggets: https://www.pdga.com/evolution-flyin...ity-initiative

in this article, a section refers to the 'flazer' golf disc. i'm not sure if the eclipse or the flazer came first, but my feeling is that as usual, innova hogs quite a bit of the spotlight light for 'innovations' in the sport. With the 2 aforementioned discs, the 'game-changer' would be defining the acceptable design envelope for triangular rim discs. discraft were the first experimenters with ideas (and molds) which we take for granted today. i believe they also pioneered the use of 'premium' plastics going back to a disc called the 'sky-streak', but they suffered from very poor market penetration in the areas of my experience (where i lived, played and traveled to for play). threw my first 400+ mark with an eclipse...

i still think that the biggest 'game-changer' for a disc mold, past the aero/aviar combo, was the cyclone. the viper may have been more 'popular' but wasn't nearly as user-friendly for a higher speed disc and i'm willing to bet that more players achieved new personal distance marks with a cyclone than any other disc available at the time. i also believe that innova 'borrowed' its design arriving somewhat later at the tee-bird. in the day, cyclones were a personal 'must bag' mold of mine and i still have a couple in my 'play' stack today...

when the second iteration of the roc, the one we know of today, came out, it gave players a level of 'comfort' and predictability with their games unknown of until then. it could take plenty of power and still keep the line (more or less). it was also less susceptible to extreme conditions, for example, very high desert heat. one of the few 'master' molds imo, most of today's mid-range discs are based upon it. it's quite a durable mold as well (one solid tree 'mac' with an eclipse and it was ruined).

for those commenters who believe that the smaller diameter discs were a one-at-a-time evolutionary series leading to the decline of the larger diameter discs, i wonder if this phenomena isn't for another reason - most people can impart more linear velocity on a smaller diameter disc than on a comparably weighted but larger diameter one...however, when one sees some our sports' 'freaks' throw phoenixes (and an occasional viper) 180+ meters, we might feel inclined to rush out and get a larger diameter driver...come to think of it, i saw a guy throw an aero 170+ meters in a distance competition once, maybe there's something to a larger wing...

were the thread about most 'influential' discs, one would have to choose the aviar - the 'supreme master' mold of disc golf...fwiw

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  #50  
Old 02-22-2019, 08:55 AM
PoorPutter PoorPutter is offline
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In my sphere of influence, the revolutionary discs were the late 90s Eagle and the XL.

And also as mentioned above, the very very original CE plastic was definitely a revolution. Looking at and using those early CE Eagles and CE Valks was like experiencing something from outer space.

Regarding Viper/Cyclone, my first driver ('93 I believe) was a Viper and it was my main for years, but EVERYBODY else threw Cyclone.

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