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Old 07-31-2019, 05:20 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Default When has a marking violation been deemed to have occurred?

Do you have to actually throw from the incorrectly marked lie for it to be a penalty? Ie if I forget I'm in a tournament and flip my thrown disc, can I just replace the thrown disc based on 810.A Interference, before I throw to avoid a penalty?

Or, has the penalty happened as soon as I flip the disc?

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Old 07-31-2019, 07:27 AM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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The rules Q&A says these things:

QA-MAR-1: An inexperienced player in my group flipped his disc to mark it and threw from there. What’s the call?

That is a marking violation since an improper method was used to mark the lie. A player’s first marking violation results in a warning.

QA-MAR-2: May I mark my lie with a mini, then decide to place the original disc back in position and pick up the mini?

No. Once you’ve picked up the thrown disc you cannot use it as a marker.


In the rules themselves, it says that a marker disc that is moved, will be put back where it should be (paraphrased).


Put that together, it's not a penalty until the player throws, but once he's picked up his disc he must use a mini. So I'd think the answer would be to flip the disc back, put a mini down, pick up the disc, and play on with no penalty.

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Old 07-31-2019, 09:55 AM
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Future_Primitive Future_Primitive is offline
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I am going to politely disagree with David, I dont see them being combined. Once you flipped the disc a marking violation has happened so you get your warning immediately. Then any future instances will start resulting in penalty strokes. This is a marking violation so once the flip occurred so does the violation. Unlike a stance violation that can't be validated until the throw is made.

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Old 07-31-2019, 10:05 AM
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BogeyNoMore BogeyNoMore is online now
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My interpretation is that moving the thrown disc prior to one of these happening is a violation:

a) you make your next throw from behind the thrown disc.

b) you place a mini marker adjacent to and in front of the thrown disc.

You can't move your disc before you throw, unless you place a marker prior to moving the disc.

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Old 07-31-2019, 11:55 AM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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My opinion isn't given with certainty.

If you move a marker disc, you put it back where it was, without penalty. Why not the disc at rest, since it can be used to mark the lie, too?

The Rules Q&A gave the penalty after a player threw from the mis-marked lie. It doesn't say specifically that the penalty only occurs once the player throws, but that's how it was described.

If you pick up a disc at rest to identify it---verify the name underneath---can't you put it back in place? How would that be different than flipping a disc, then putting it back in place?

I just think these rules point towards saying that it's not a marking violation until the mis-marked lie is used---i.e., thrown from. It seems correctable up to that point.

The rules aren't clear, and as I said I'm not certain. But it seems to me the reasonable interpretation, in light of these passages.

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Old 07-31-2019, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
If you pick up a disc at rest to identify it---verify the name underneath---can't you put it back in place? How would that be different than flipping a disc, then putting it back in place?

Hmm... that actually makes sense.
Perhaps it's ok to move and replace?
How else is one to check for a unique mark, typically placed on the bottom or inner rim?

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Old 07-31-2019, 12:10 PM
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Thanks for expanding on your thought process David, I may be coming around to your interpretation.

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Old 07-31-2019, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
My opinion isn't given with certainty.

If you move a marker disc, you put it back where it was, without penalty. Why not the disc at rest, since it can be used to mark the lie, too?

The Rules Q&A gave the penalty after a player threw from the mis-marked lie. It doesn't say specifically that the penalty only occurs once the player throws, but that's how it was described.

If you pick up a disc at rest to identify it---verify the name underneath---can't you put it back in place? How would that be different than flipping a disc, then putting it back in place?

I just think these rules point towards saying that it's not a marking violation until the mis-marked lie is used---i.e., thrown from. It seems correctable up to that point.

The rules aren't clear, and as I said I'm not certain. But it seems to me the reasonable interpretation, in light of these passages.
The disc at rest can be replaced without penalty if it is moved. The rules used to be specific that the thrown disc could not be touched or moved except in the act of identifying it (flipping to see the name). The rules no longer say this, so I believe that if the thrown disc at rest is moved, it can be replaced just the same as a mini.

I believe QA-MAR-2 is flawed in that it needs a few more key words. I believe the wording should read "Once you’ve marked the lie with a mini and picked up the thrown disc you cannot use it as a marker." If there's no mini in use, the thrown disc is the marker. Once the mini is used, the thrown disc ceases to be the marker and can't be replaced as one.

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Old 07-31-2019, 01:43 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
...I believe QA-MAR-2 is flawed in that it needs a few more key words. I believe the wording should read "Once you’ve marked the lie with a mini and picked up the thrown disc you cannot use it as a marker."...
Nice change for clarity. Ties the committing act down to both placing the mini AND picking up the thrown disc.



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Old 07-31-2019, 01:45 PM
Dcinmd Dcinmd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
If you pick up a disc at rest to identify it---verify the name underneath---can't you put it back in place? How would that be different than flipping a disc, then putting it back in place?
Interesting situation that came up last week. Two Orange disc go into the Pit of Despair filled with thorns, bushes and what not. A very helpful tournament official helps the card locate the two discs. He then states identify the disc to make sure you are playing the correct lie.

I state that while I can take a legal position position behind my disc but I am unable to legally mark it and can not confirm with 100% certainty that the disc is mine, I was only about 95% sure. The official state look at the other disc as it more in the open and easier to identify.

So that is how we handled the situation. But I agree with your premise.
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