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Old 12-02-2019, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ru4por View Post
The scores and finishing order are complete, once the tournament is over. The ratings can be corrected if so desired, as described below.

I am not sure how or why errors would be discovered days later. Whatever process was used to discover the error, should have been employed on the day of the event.
Let's just say it's a "hypothetical situation". The players would have miscounted a score and the TD's staff would not have double checked the math on the score. I just wanted clarification on whether anything could be done to remedy any part of this situation a few days after completion of the event.
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  #42  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
I understand what you're saying, but if the focus is on getting scores and finishing order correct, how would payouts not factor into getting things correct? Are you saying that ratings are more important than prizes? Why?

Just picking a tournament at random, let's say that a week after the Delaware Challenge NT event, it was somehow discovered that Matt Bell mis-added his scorecard and he really shot a 62 in the final round, not a 61. Correcting his score and adding the penalty to it would give him a 64 final round score and a total of 193 for the weekend. That's good for a tie for second (w/Joel Freeman) instead of the win. Are you really good with correcting those scores in order to have "accurate" ratings, but not correcting the payouts because they're "done and over"? Matt would have roughly $1100 more than he deserved, Ricky would be short about $800, and Joel would lose out on about $300.

The ratings change on such a correction is probably a tiny fraction of a point for all players involved except Matt...his round rating drops probably 18-19 points which maybe changes his overall average by a point at most. Is that worth shorting two players, who incidentally weren't even on his card, that kind of money?

The rules at the moment close the books on the tournament once the payouts are distributed. I think that's a more than fair place to draw that line. There just isn't enough of a statistical reason to dig deep after that happens just so the ratings are "perfect".
Again, I was mainly looking for clarification on whether anything could or should be done if an error like this is found a few days after completion of an event. And based on the replies, nothing can be done. Good to know.

Even if scores could be corrected, adjusting payouts accordingly seems impractical to say the least. It's not that payouts are "less important" than fixing scoring errors, just not practical -- where fixing scoring errors would be relatively easy.
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  #43  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Consult20 View Post
Let's just say it's a "hypothetical situation". The players would have miscounted a score and the TD's staff would not have double checked the math on the score. I just wanted clarification on whether anything could be done to remedy any part of this situation a few days after completion of the event.
The only situation I'm aware of where an adjustment like this has happened was completely throwing out the scores on one hole after everyone was paid the event was over for a day or more. The final standings and payouts remained the same but the TD was required to re-total the scores and submit them as 17-hole scores so that ratings would be done for these scores rather than the 18-hole scores originally submitted.

Why was this done (for at least 3 events as I recall)? TD included an island hole with no drop zone where players of all skill levels were required to re-tee until landing safe on the island. Several players in all divisions were taking double-digit scores on the hole including some in the 20s. Some players ran out of discs and even gave up, leaving the event in disgust. This type of island without a DZ would not have been approved even if TD had applied for a waiver.

This odd adjustment will show up in these events where the 18-hole "bad" scores are still shown but the 17-hole official ratings are posted next to them to where it will look like two players with the same 18-hole score will have different (17-hole) ratings.

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Old 12-02-2019, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
The only situation I'm aware of where an adjustment like this has happened was completely throwing out the scores on one hole after everyone was paid the event was over for a day or more. The final standings and payouts remained the same but the TD was required to re-total the scores and submit them as 17-hole scores so that ratings would be done for these scores rather than the 18-hole scores originally submitted.

Why was this done (for at least 3 events as I recall)? TD included an island hole with no drop zone where players of all skill levels were required to re-tee until landing safe on the island. Several players in all divisions were taking double-digit scores on the hole including some in the 20s. Some players ran out of discs and even gave up, leaving the event in disgust. This type of island without a DZ would not have been approved even if TD had applied for a waiver.

This odd adjustment will show up in these events where the 18-hole "bad" scores are still shown but the 17-hole official ratings are posted next to them to where it will look like two players with the same 18-hole score will have different (17-hole) ratings.
So on the event page the PDGA didn't adjust the total scores, just the ratings... hmm, since they threw out the island hole scores anyway, why not adjust all the scores to reflect the 17 valid holes?
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:37 PM
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So on the event page the PDGA didn't adjust the total scores, just the ratings... hmm, since they threw out the island hole scores anyway, why not adjust all the scores to reflect the 17 valid holes?
Because the official results were not changed, just how the rounds were rated.
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:45 PM
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Because the official results were not changed, just how the rounds were rated.
Fix the round ratings but not the payouts? JC, close your eyes -- don't read this!!! lol
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Old 12-02-2019, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
I understand what you're saying, but if the focus is on getting scores and finishing order correct, how would payouts not factor into getting things correct? Are you saying that ratings are more important than prizes? Why?

Just picking a tournament at random, let's say that a week after the Delaware Challenge NT event, it was somehow discovered that Matt Bell mis-added his scorecard and he really shot a 62 in the final round, not a 61. Correcting his score and adding the penalty to it would give him a 64 final round score and a total of 193 for the weekend. That's good for a tie for second (w/Joel Freeman) instead of the win. Are you really good with correcting those scores in order to have "accurate" ratings, but not correcting the payouts because they're "done and over"? Matt would have roughly $1100 more than he deserved, Ricky would be short about $800, and Joel would lose out on about $300.

The ratings change on such a correction is probably a tiny fraction of a point for all players involved except Matt...his round rating drops probably 18-19 points which maybe changes his overall average by a point at most. Is that worth shorting two players, who incidentally weren't even on his card, that kind of money?

The rules at the moment close the books on the tournament once the payouts are distributed. I think that's a more than fair place to draw that line. There just isn't enough of a statistical reason to dig deep after that happens just so the ratings are "perfect".

I see the concerns and a lot of talk on this topic. 'Ratings more important than prizes' question, 'money' questions, 'could vs should' questions, etc.

What I am seeing is that the question of "what is the current standard?" has been asked and answered. Several times. It may not be to some people's liking, but the OP has been answered. The "should" question, to me, is a discussion thread, and from that standpoint, start taking opinions -- from everyone affected -- players, TDs, PDGA officials, Comp Committee, IT team -- all of those people factor into how best to handle the situation, that is, if you think the current answer isn't it. But to have a healthy discussion, all those groups need to be solicited.
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:42 PM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
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Please let me know if I am understanding all of this correctly:

1 - If a player error, not caught by the TD/staff (Anyone), after the event is over (Awards given out) = no procedure to correct errors? Plus, no one caught the error, so who would ever know.

2 - If TD/staff error, not caught by the TD/staff (Anyone), after the event is over (Awards given out) = TD can correct errors through the TManager and PDGA?

I have done the second example multiple times, because I simply typed an incorrect score for player X when submitting the official report. I have resubmitted the report or simply called Andrew (PDGA) to correct it for me. Fortunately, everything at the events was correct in the first place and no standing or payout were done incorrectly on site. The PDGA site did, for a short time, show the incorrect standings and payouts, but were changed within a day or two as players would contact me and give me a heads up about my errors.



I am not aware of how to handle the below situation, if it ever happened....

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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
...Just picking a tournament at random, let's say that a week after the Delaware Challenge NT event, it was somehow discovered that Matt Bell mis-added his scorecard and he really shot a 62 in the final round, not a 61. Correcting his score and adding the penalty to it would give him a 64 final round score and a total of 193 for the weekend. That's good for a tie for second (w/Joel Freeman) instead of the win. ... Matt would have roughly $1100 more than he deserved, Ricky would be short about $800, and Joel would lose out on about $300.


...how would that be handled and are there specific rules that address this directly? Would the TD just attempt to informally ask the players to work with them to correct the improper payouts? Would the TD be responsible for any money lost to players personally?

In the above hypothetical example, if Matt said he had no interest in returning the $1100 because it was my error as the TD and Ricky and Joel demanded their fair share of the payout - what would be required of me as a TD?
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Old 12-02-2019, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
Please let me know if I am understanding all of this correctly:

1 - If a player error, not caught by the TD/staff (Anyone), after the event is over (Awards given out) = no procedure to correct errors? Plus, no one caught the error, so who would ever know.
One example: Some players take a picture of their card before it gets turned in. A few days after the event someone asks to see the picture of the card to see how everyone did on specific holes. So the player texts the picture of the card to the interested party. Interested party calculates scores for each person, just out of habit, and notices the math error.

This isn't exactly what happened in my "hypothetical/not hypothetical" situation, but something sort of equivalent -- which was the genesis of the original question.
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  #50  
Old 12-02-2019, 09:39 PM
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Again, I was mainly looking for clarification on whether anything could or should be done if an error like this is found a few days after completion of an event. And based on the replies, nothing can be done. Good to know.

Even if scores could be corrected, adjusting payouts accordingly seems impractical to say the least. It's not that payouts are "less important" than fixing scoring errors, just not practical -- where fixing scoring errors would be relatively easy.
I think part of the problem is practical or not, if you adjust scores, somebody is going to want payouts adjusted....I almost guarantee this.

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