#11  
Old 03-03-2021, 10:41 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
The RC is not part of the process for making rulings. The group decides, and if one of the players wants to appeal, the thrower can play a provisional (if the lie is different) and the group asks the TD. Done, final.

Many things depend on local conditions and first-hand knowledge. These can't be decided by the RC later.

There isn't any backroom where the RC keeps more-complete definitions of terms. What's in the rules is all you get. That way, everyone gets the same rules.
And Steve I agree with those statements (red) wholeheartedly. That wasn't my point. My point was "from a strictly rules perspective, that is not the intent of the RC."
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  #12  
Old 03-03-2021, 10:52 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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And Steve I agree with those statements (red) wholeheartedly. That wasn't my point. My point was "from a strictly rules perspective, that is not the intent of the RC."
Not everyone (maybe not anyone) has access to the intent of the RC, so make the ruling based on what's written.
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Old 03-03-2021, 11:15 PM
txmxer txmxer is offline
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I’d guess a TD would make statements about the slopes in referring to, but don’t know.

For the sake of clarification, if the player felt he could not safely get a legal stance and make a throw, he couldn’t take relief with a stroke penalty? The only legal choice absent a TD direction would be to abandon the throw and rethrow from the original lie?
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Old 03-04-2021, 12:45 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by txmxer View Post
I’d guess a TD would make statements about the slopes in referring to, but don’t know.

For the sake of clarification, if the player felt he could not safely get a legal stance and make a throw, he couldn’t take relief with a stroke penalty? The only legal choice absent a TD direction would be to abandon the throw and rethrow from the original lie?
For a penalty, the player can take Optional Relief or Abandon the throw. The player does not need to feel unsafe to do so.

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Old 03-05-2021, 01:35 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Not everyone (maybe not anyone) has access to the intent of the RC, so make the ruling based on what's written.
And I agree with that as well. I was just adding my interp for emphasis. But, thanks. I see what you're telling me.
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Old 03-05-2021, 03:23 PM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is offline
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I've played tournaments at Saddle and familiar with the holes. It's all in bounds, no relief. Now...if it's a muddy, wet, mess, you address this with the TD before the tournament and they may establish relief areas with no penalty. Same with un safe areas, those should be brought to the TD before the tournament and addressed accordingly. Now with that in mind, when the TD fails to address certain areas that end up being clearly unsafe, the card could make a call and give relief. I've been on a card a few times that has given relief to severe thorn bushes, obvious poison ivy, slippery mud, etc.

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Old 03-05-2021, 03:33 PM
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Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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I've played tournaments at Saddle and familiar with the holes. It's all in bounds, no relief. Now...if it's a muddy, wet, mess, you address this with the TD before the tournament and they may establish relief areas with no penalty. Same with un safe areas, those should be brought to the TD before the tournament and addressed accordingly. Now with that in mind, when the TD fails to address certain areas that end up being clearly unsafe, the card could make a call and give relief. I've been on a card a few times that has given relief to severe thorn bushes, obvious poison ivy, slippery mud, etc.
Why should it be free relief? The rules clearly state that a player can take optional relief at any time for a penalty stroke. Not saying I like the penalty but then again how would you write the rule to where the group has the option to grant free relief when the TD hasn't done so?

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Old 03-05-2021, 04:10 PM
Agricolae Agricolae is offline
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Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
I've played tournaments at Saddle and familiar with the holes. It's all in bounds, no relief. Now...if it's a muddy, wet, mess, you address this with the TD before the tournament and they may establish relief areas with no penalty. Same with un safe areas, those should be brought to the TD before the tournament and addressed accordingly. Now with that in mind, when the TD fails to address certain areas that end up being clearly unsafe, the card could make a call and give relief. I've been on a card a few times that has given relief to severe thorn bushes, obvious poison ivy, slippery mud, etc.
The card can't "make a call" and change the official rules.

Rightly or wrongly, thorn bushes, poison ivy and slippery mud do not qualify for relief unless specifically identified and addressed by the TD. Would you communicate to players on other cards during the round that you've "made a call" and that relief is now available for thorn bush? If I'm not allergic to poison ivy am I ineligible for relief given to others who are allerigic?

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Old 03-05-2021, 04:36 PM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is offline
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Originally Posted by Agricolae View Post
The card can't "make a call" and change the official rules.

Rightly or wrongly, thorn bushes, poison ivy and slippery mud do not qualify for relief unless specifically identified and addressed by the TD. Would you communicate to players on other cards during the round that you've "made a call" and that relief is now available for thorn bush? If I'm not allergic to poison ivy am I ineligible for relief given to others who are allerigic?
Agreed 100%. The only thing I can add is this has happened in the past on cards that I have been on. I have disagreed most of the time, but if I feel someone is truly in a situation that could end up with an injury, I go along with it. Keep in mind, it's usually am players, older guys 50+. Not saying that makes it right, just being open about it.

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Why should it be free relief? The rules clearly state that a player can take optional relief at any time for a penalty stroke. Not saying I like the penalty but then again how would you write the rule to where the group has the option to grant free relief when the TD hasn't done so?
If you're asking how to stop a card from making on the fly decisions to keep safe flow of play going, I don't know. The only time I personally will encourage relief is when the lie is truly dangerous. I'm not going to force a player to throw from a lie that could result in an injury...ever.

I realize cards aren't supposed to make up their own rules, I get there is no unsafe lie rule. But at the same time, there is legit scenarios where there is very un safe lies. Especially in dynamic weather conditions.

Take the following scenario....

The course had some rain, the TD walked the course and set some areas up as relief, but during the round more rain comes. A player finds his disc in a spot on a bank leading down to a creek. Without the additional rain, the area would be fine, but now there is muddy, slippery conditions due to water flowing down the bank. Under normal conditions the lie is safe, now it is not. How should this be PDGA handled?
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  #20  
Old 03-05-2021, 04:42 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
I've played tournaments at Saddle and familiar with the holes. It's all in bounds, no relief. Now...if it's a muddy, wet, mess, you address this with the TD before the tournament and they may establish relief areas with no penalty. Same with un safe areas, those should be brought to the TD before the tournament and addressed accordingly. Now with that in mind, when the TD fails to address certain areas that end up being clearly unsafe, the card could make a call and give relief. I've been on a card a few times that has given relief to severe thorn bushes, obvious poison ivy, slippery mud, etc.
One of the most persistent myths is that a player can get some kind of exemption from the rules "for safety".

There is NO exemption from any rule for "safety".

A player who truly feels unsafe can abandon the throw for a penalty, take optional relief for a penalty, or quit. Imposing a penalty throw is not "forcing" anybody to do anything unsafe.

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Last edited by Steve West; 03-05-2021 at 04:45 PM.
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