#21  
Old 03-05-2021, 05:08 PM
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Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
Agreed 100%. The only thing I can add is this has happened in the past on cards that I have been on. I have disagreed most of the time, but if I feel someone is truly in a situation that could end up with an injury, I go along with it. Keep in mind, it's usually am players, older guys 50+. Not saying that makes it right, just being open about it.



If you're asking how to stop a card from making on the fly decisions to keep safe flow of play going, I don't know. The only time I personally will encourage relief is when the lie is truly dangerous. I'm not going to force a player to throw from a lie that could result in an injury...ever.

I realize cards aren't supposed to make up their own rules, I get there is no unsafe lie rule. But at the same time, there is legit scenarios where there is very un safe lies. Especially in dynamic weather conditions.

Take the following scenario....

The course had some rain, the TD walked the course and set some areas up as relief, but during the round more rain comes. A player finds his disc in a spot on a bank leading down to a creek. Without the additional rain, the area would be fine, but now there is muddy, slippery conditions due to water flowing down the bank. Under normal conditions the lie is safe, now it is not. How should this be PDGA handled?
Players take Optional Relief or Abandoned Throw if they can't play a lie that's inbounds. As Steve points out, there are no lies that are "unsafe" by default, only those that the player has determined they cannot play. What other better rule could be written that would allow a group to make such a free relief call that would be fair to others in their competition division?
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  #22  
Old 03-05-2021, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
Agreed 100%. The only thing I can add is this has happened in the past on cards that I have been on. I have disagreed most of the time, but if I feel someone is truly in a situation that could end up with an injury, I go along with it. Keep in mind, it's usually am players, older guys 50+. Not saying that makes it right, just being open about it.
It has happened on cards I've played on, too; I play with the same guys as you.

"We can't make Bob play from inside that briar patch ... it's not safe! I say, just let him throw from here."

"A guy could break an arm trying to make a throw from inside all those trees and brush ... it's not safe. I say, just let him throw from here."

Well, that's why there's a rule allowing for abandoned lie or optional rethrow, so Bob doesn't have to break his arm or slash himself with green briars. Briars and other dense rough is natural OB that comes with, effectively, a stroke-and-distance penalty if optional relief is not practical and one chooses to abandon the lie.

Like you, DiscFifty, I'm the guy who explains the rules as I know them and offers to pull out a hard-copy of the rulebook from my bag, if needed, so we can all make the best call. I can't say that I've ever won any popularity contests by doing this although it does tend to reduce the extraneous small-talk amongst the card mates for the next few, or more, holes.
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Old 03-05-2021, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
The RC is not part of the process for making rulings. The group decides, and if one of the players wants to appeal, the thrower can play a provisional (if the lie is different) and the group asks the TD. Done, final.

Many things depend on local conditions and first-hand knowledge. These can't be decided by the RC later.

There isn't any backroom where the RC keeps more-complete definitions of terms. What's in the rules is all you get. That way, everyone gets the same rules.
To be clear, if a player or TD needs help in understanding the application of the rules. Please contact the RC. I'd rather have the rules interpreted properly than perpetuate rules myths. Actual situations/questions verses hypothetical questions are preferred. We try to get answers returned promptly (usually within 24 hours), but it is a volunteer role.

In an event, the TD makes the final call.

As to the playability of a steep slope, there is not a specific steepness where it transitions from a playing surface to a wall. The TD is really the best person to determine what is and what is not a playing surface in that case. Areas should not change from playing surface to non-playing surface when it rains. The status of the area should be consistent regardless of the weather conditions.

As noted earlier, groups don't get to make up rules and provide free relief. The next group might have the same situation and point to the rules on how to handle it. Everyone needs to play by the same set of rules for fair competition.

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Old 03-06-2021, 05:16 AM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is offline
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
What other better rule could be written that would allow a group to make such a free relief call that would be fair to others in their competition division?
Can we create a 1 size fits all rule when the course is being modified in real time from mother nature? But we definitely realize more than ever, the sport has severe risks to the elbow and knee, magnified greatly when your ability to brace, stand firm, (stand still throw or 360), is greatly reduced due to slippery conditions.

I am not talking about a disc landing off fairway, etc, I'm talking about a disc landing in the fairway, in an area that before the tournament started was safe to throw from, but now is a potential career ending mess. Standing in water on concrete is different from standing in water that is muddy, slippery, etc.

I've played in tournaments where the TD would allow players to tee off in the grass behind, or on the sides due to potential slippery conditions. Why not the same thought given for the fairway? So maybe it's as simple as the TD declaring "casual area" (which allows for relief) for muddy, slippery conditions as long as the card agrees & as long as the lie is in the actual fairway. (Not the rough, briers, etc)

So maybe.....a formal rule could be written something similar to... "Dynamic Casual Area - To give dynamic casual area relief due to changes on the course that were not there at tournament start, the player must first declare an unsafe lie. The card then must first determine and agree that the disc is on the fairway and then also agree the lie is unsafe."

That's more than likely what is happening anyway in some scenarios. Again...I'm not going to penalize (score or health wise) a player for throwing a decent drive and then upon coming up to his lie, see the disc in a patch of wet, slippery mud. Never.

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Old 03-06-2021, 06:39 AM
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Disc golf is based on many concepts borrowed from ball golf. Perhaps one of the most important is to play your next shot from where it lies, assuming the lie is inbounds with no other previously defined lie relocation rule that applies to that location. If you're not able to do so or choose not to do so, you may relocate your lie following one of the provided options plus a penalty stroke.

Having unfortunate things happen to your shot in ball golf, usually due to natural causes, is called "rub of the green." You just buck up and deal with it either playing a worse lie than you "deserved" or taking a penalty and relocating to a better lie per the rules. The DG rules makers had no better idea for our version of that ball golf principle that was less punitive and could be consistently applied. If you have an idea for a less punitive approach that could be consistently applied by every group, the RC is willing to hear proposals for future consideration. I've heard a few ideas for less punishment, but they deviate from the "play it where it lies" ball golf principle too much to be approved for sanctioned play. So, keep that in mind.

I'm aware of two cases where all the scores on a hole were discarded due to flash flooding during the round that made the hole unplayable (basket submerged) for many of the groups. So, take your penalty medicine when necessary. There's an outside chance that your "rub of the green" issue might affect so many others in the round that the TD is forced to discard those hole scores.
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Old 03-06-2021, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
Can we create a 1 size fits all rule when the course is being modified in real time from mother nature? But we definitely realize more than ever, the sport has severe risks to the elbow and knee, magnified greatly when your ability to brace, stand firm, (stand still throw or 360), is greatly reduced due to slippery conditions.

I am not talking about a disc landing off fairway, etc, I'm talking about a disc landing in the fairway, in an area that before the tournament started was safe to throw from, but now is a potential career ending mess. Standing in water on concrete is different from standing in water that is muddy, slippery, etc.

I've played in tournaments where the TD would allow players to tee off in the grass behind, or on the sides due to potential slippery conditions. Why not the same thought given for the fairway? So maybe it's as simple as the TD declaring "casual area" (which allows for relief) for muddy, slippery conditions as long as the card agrees & as long as the lie is in the actual fairway. (Not the rough, briers, etc)

So maybe.....a formal rule could be written something similar to... "Dynamic Casual Area - To give dynamic casual area relief due to changes on the course that were not there at tournament start, the player must first declare an unsafe lie. The card then must first determine and agree that the disc is on the fairway and then also agree the lie is unsafe.".
The fundamental requirement for a fair competition is that all competitors in an event play by same rules. The "choose to tee behind or beside the provided teepad" provision meets this requirement because all players have the option of doing so at any time, regardless of whether or not they considier the teepad to be "slippery."

For a "dynamic casual area" rule to be equitable all players must have the option of declaring an "unsafe lie," regardless of any change in course conditions during the round. Otherwise you're creating a condition in which players who played a hole prior to the "change" in conditions are forced to play under a different set of rules than players who played it after those "changes."

Furthermore, how does one define what "changes" to course conditions activate the rule: would an additional 1/4" of snow qualify? 1/2"? 1"? What if it's wet snow as opposed to powder? Wet grass/leaves as opposed to dry? How about if the ground is merely wet as opposed to saturated, like an alluvial or riparian zone at high water/tide vs. low water/tide? Or is it entirely a player's or group's call (in which case, be prepared to accept players gaming the system)?

The Rules alread provide a mechanism for TDs to declare casual relief for potentially hazardous areas prior to a round or an event. While changes due to extraordinary events (tornados, earthquakes, tree falls, sinkhole opening, etc.) can't be anticipated, presumably, a TD of a sanctioned tournament knows the topography and sufficient experience of the range of conditions typically found on the course(s) being used, and has the sense to anticipate [including the sense to keep an eye on the weather forecast leading up to and during the event] and provide for ordinary contingencies accordingly.

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Old 03-08-2021, 07:04 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
I've played tournaments at Saddle and familiar with the holes. It's all in bounds, no relief. Now...if it's a muddy, wet, mess, you address this with the TD before the tournament and they may establish relief areas with no penalty. Same with un safe areas, those should be brought to the TD before the tournament and addressed accordingly. Now with that in mind, when the TD fails to address certain areas that end up being clearly unsafe, the card could make a call and give relief. I've been on a card a few times that has given relief to severe thorn bushes, obvious poison ivy, slippery mud, etc.
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Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
Agreed 100%. The only thing I can add is this has happened in the past on cards that I have been on. I have disagreed most of the time, but if I feel someone is truly in a situation that could end up with an injury, I go along with it. Keep in mind, it's usually am players, older guys 50+. Not saying that makes it right, just being open about it.



If you're asking how to stop a card from making on the fly decisions to keep safe flow of play going, I don't know. The only time I personally will encourage relief is when the lie is truly dangerous. I'm not going to force a player to throw from a lie that could result in an injury...ever.

I realize cards aren't supposed to make up their own rules, I get there is no unsafe lie rule. But at the same time, there is legit scenarios where there is very un safe lies. Especially in dynamic weather conditions.

Take the following scenario....

The course had some rain, the TD walked the course and set some areas up as relief, but during the round more rain comes. A player finds his disc in a spot on a bank leading down to a creek. Without the additional rain, the area would be fine, but now there is muddy, slippery conditions due to water flowing down the bank. Under normal conditions the lie is safe, now it is not. How should this be PDGA handled?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
Can we create a 1 size fits all rule when the course is being modified in real time from mother nature? But we definitely realize more than ever, the sport has severe risks to the elbow and knee, magnified greatly when your ability to brace, stand firm, (stand still throw or 360), is greatly reduced due to slippery conditions.

I am not talking about a disc landing off fairway, etc, I'm talking about a disc landing in the fairway, in an area that before the tournament started was safe to throw from, but now is a potential career ending mess. Standing in water on concrete is different from standing in water that is muddy, slippery, etc.

I've played in tournaments where the TD would allow players to tee off in the grass behind, or on the sides due to potential slippery conditions. Why not the same thought given for the fairway? So maybe it's as simple as the TD declaring "casual area" (which allows for relief) for muddy, slippery conditions as long as the card agrees & as long as the lie is in the actual fairway. (Not the rough, briers, etc)

So maybe.....a formal rule could be written something similar to... "Dynamic Casual Area - To give dynamic casual area relief due to changes on the course that were not there at tournament start, the player must first declare an unsafe lie. The card then must first determine and agree that the disc is on the fairway and then also agree the lie is unsafe."

That's more than likely what is happening anyway in some scenarios. Again...I'm not going to penalize (score or health wise) a player for throwing a decent drive and then upon coming up to his lie, see the disc in a patch of wet, slippery mud. Never.
D50, you're misinterpreting one thing all these other people are saying. NONE of them (as I see it) are saying you have to make the player throw from that lie. They can certainly elect a "safer" (in their mind) lie with the optional relief and penalty stroke. So let's lose the "for health and safety issue" completely. It's disc golf. It's a game we play. We throw frisbees at mangled metal in the park. It's not life or death. They don't even have to play if they think the event or course or conditions, etc. are "unsafe" as they see it.

Now it was your personal value system that has added to this situation the "they shouldn't be penalized 'SCORE'-wise" thing (in your third response above). And you don't see the argument. On ANY OTHER SPOT ON THE COURSE, if someone in my division plays the hole not in accordance with the rules and doesn't get penalized for it, that's actually giving ME a penalty. Because had I known if I throw to XYZ place I am going to get free relief on that hole, I could have made my decisions accordingly. You don't know what shot or throw I might have in my repertoire that might have been better for me personally if I got that free relief. But if it isn't in the PDGA rules, isn't in the course rules, and isn't a TD declared rule for the day, then you've given some players advantage over the others -- and THAT, my friend, is the thing that is totally against the spirit of these rules. In fact it's against the spirit of fair play for pretty much for any type of competition. In general "rules" are only there to ensure a fair competition - that everyone is playing the same game/sport/activity. If there are some rules that apply to some people and not to others, well then .. well I'm not finishing that sentence. I am perfectly OK with the TD making declarations of fairness of holes and casual relief areas before the round. Once the round starts I am not. The TD can throw out the entire hole scores for everyone in the division for a troublesome hole that had an "unplayable" area during the round (still maybe not totally fair, but better) if your claim is the course conditions changed during the round, but what they shouldn't do is have "dynamic casual relief" that changes for certain players throughout the round. The TD could also, if they know the course well enough, know where the standing water might show up later in the day and mark the penalty free casual relief zones BEFORE the round starts even if the areas are safe to throw from then. That makes it the same for everyone. At VPO, I was the one who encouraged the TD to use penalty-free relief zones.

In the scenario you proposed, the player could 1) play it where it lies, (even if he has to lie down or take a knee so as not to slip) or he can 2) take optional relief with penalty, or he can 3) choose abandoned throw with penalty. That is the one-size-fits-all-rule.

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Old 03-08-2021, 09:43 PM
Agricolae Agricolae is offline
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...if someone in my division plays the hole not in accordance with the rules and doesn't get penalized for it, that's actually giving ME a penalty...
That's a great point and perspective.

I would add - it's not only giving me a penalty but giving a penalty to every player in the division. Usually, one has to ace or eagle to gain a stroke on the entire field and even then it's not a guarantee.

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Old 03-09-2021, 05:27 AM
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D50, you're misinterpreting one thing all these other people are saying.
Thanks for the reply, I do understand the rule as it is currently written. Like my other thread implies, this discussion will happen again in the future, mainly due to the increased publicity of the tour and the public discussion that would ensue if a serious injury occurred. Just like we're lucky spectators can be as close as they are now, 1 high speed disc to the face of a child and that's a thing of the past.
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  #30  
Old 03-09-2021, 02:09 PM
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Thanks for the reply, I do understand the rule as it is currently written. Like my other thread implies, this discussion will happen again in the future, mainly due to the increased publicity of the tour and the public discussion that would ensue if a serious injury occurred. Just like we're lucky spectators can be as close as they are now, 1 high speed disc to the face of a child and that's a thing of the past.
Are people blaming Tiger or the roadway design for rolling his vehicle?
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