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View Poll Results: Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open?
A par 2 where 38% of throws are errors, and 1% of throws are hero throws. 6 25.00%
A par 3 where 24% of throws are errors, and 33% of throws are hero throws. 16 66.67%
A par 4 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 23% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes. 0 0%
A par 6 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 62% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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  #671  
Old 04-30-2017, 09:56 PM
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dreadlock86 dreadlock86 is offline
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
The biggest concern with those who don't understand the ratings system is the numbers are based on "who shows up".
this is why i don't like seeing people invoke what round ratings are coming in at as a justification for what par should be. par is about what ought to happen and round ratings indicate what actually happened. the later shouldn't have any effect on the former.


i'd like to see the definition of the putting green change. make it 80-100' so long as there is a putting line to the basket. that clears up the "2 close range throws" issue and also means getting on the green is no longer a nearly guaranteed hole-out for gold players. i really like the new "circle 1" and "circle 2" concepts and i think that's a big step forward.

a bigger green would also be a way to logically justify the refusal to call holes a Par 2 (which i don't get). if the green is, say, 100' then it doesn't matter if the hole is 400' or 200' because 1 throw off the tee gets you on the green, whether that's an easy drop in or an 80' jump putt layout and then a drop in. but i guess that's still all semantics.
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  #672  
Old 04-30-2017, 10:43 PM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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Originally Posted by PMantle View Post
Is anhyzer in the dictionary? What I posted comes from disc golf.
Anhyzer is in the disc golf lexicon and was developed to describe a type of throw particular to the sport. Par is? I didn't realize we were discussing philosophy? Par is a term defined in standard dictionaries. The definition is universal, if lacking a concrete finality. Par was constructed as a way to describe the difficulty of a course or a hole. The reason for par is defined just above better than I ever could. The term ceases to be useful or to have meaning if you use it incorrectly. In terms of Grand Importance, meh. All that we've done is replace par with birdie. That isn't important except it makes us look insecure.
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  #673  
Old 04-30-2017, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dreadlock86 View Post
this is why i don't like seeing people invoke what round ratings are coming in at as a justification for what par should be. par is about what ought to happen and round ratings indicate what actually happened. the later shouldn't have any effect on the former.


i'd like to see the definition of the putting green change. make it 80-100' so long as there is a putting line to the basket. that clears up the "2 close range throws" issue and also means getting on the green is no longer a nearly guaranteed hole-out for gold players. i really like the new "circle 1" and "circle 2" concepts and i think that's a big step forward.

a bigger green would also be a way to logically justify the refusal to call holes a Par 2 (which i don't get). if the green is, say, 100' then it doesn't matter if the hole is 400' or 200' because 1 throw off the tee gets you on the green, whether that's an easy drop in or an 80' jump putt layout and then a drop in. but i guess that's still all semantics.
For me, par isn't what should happen, it's a measure of hole and course difficulty. There can't really be a "what should happen." There are too many variables involved. Even par only has so much use. Too many variables. But it's a place to start a discussion or analysis of difficulty.
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  #674  
Old 04-30-2017, 11:33 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
For me, par isn't what should happen, it's a measure of hole and course difficulty. There can't really be a "what should happen." There are too many variables involved. Even par only has so much use. Too many variables. But it's a place to start a discussion or analysis of difficulty.
Don't confuse what par IS with what par DOES. Sure, it tells us how difficult a hole is, but it also tells us how a hole should be played, and what a good score should be, and it tells us whether the score we got on this hole helped us or hurt us, and it tells us whether the course played hard that day, and it tells us how we (or the players we are watching on video) are doing against the rest of the field even across different courses, and it can tell us how the designer thinks the hole will be played, etc.

But, none of those define par. Most of the confusion and resulting discussion is caused by people latching on to the one thing they want par to DO, and then thinking that is what par IS.

It just so happens that par set according to the actual official definition of par does very well at all the things par should do. Even allowing for the fuzziness of the words in the definition.

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  #675  
Old 05-01-2017, 07:11 AM
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  #676  
Old 05-01-2017, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
Anhyzer is in the disc golf lexicon and was developed to describe a type of throw particular to the sport. Par is? I didn't realize we were discussing philosophy? Par is a term defined in standard dictionaries. The definition is universal, if lacking a concrete finality. Par was constructed as a way to describe the difficulty of a course or a hole. The reason for par is defined just above better than I ever could. The term ceases to be useful or to have meaning if you use it incorrectly. In terms of Grand Importance, meh. All that we've done is replace par with birdie. That isn't important except it makes us look insecure.
Are you being obtuse or do you just not know that par is defined in disc golf? Hell, the PDGA has an entire page devoted to it. What I posted came from a disc golf website.
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  #677  
Old 05-01-2017, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Don't confuse what par IS with what par DOES. Sure, it tells us how difficult a hole is, but it also tells us how a hole should be played, and what a good score should be, and it tells us whether the score we got on this hole helped us or hurt us, and it tells us whether the course played hard that day, and it tells us how we (or the players we are watching on video) are doing against the rest of the field even across different courses, and it can tell us how the designer thinks the hole will be played, etc.

But, none of those define par. Most of the confusion and resulting discussion is caused by people latching on to the one thing they want par to DO, and then thinking that is what par IS.

It just so happens that par set according to the actual official definition of par does very well at all the things par should do. Even allowing for the fuzziness of the words in the definition.
Thanks Steve. A bit of clarity, my defining par is not being always universally useful was based on something like weather conditions. A thirty mile an hour wind changes the nature of play and par has less value. In the situation where variables due to conditions are fixed, my concern is eliminated.

Clearly I overstated.
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  #678  
Old 05-01-2017, 08:09 AM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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Originally Posted by PMantle View Post
Are you being obtuse or do you just not know that par is defined in disc golf? Hell, the PDGA has an entire page devoted to it. What I posted came from a disc golf website.
LOL

The "definition" you gave may have come from a disc golf web site, but it isn't the definition. Again, it's a methodology. I know it fits what you want par to be for our sport, and for those who want every hole to be birdied, but the methodology doesn't fit what happens. Again, every person who's referred to that methodology in the past has pointed out that it's what is used in bolf. Most of them played bolf.

Question, do you think most accomplished players average two putts per hole? They don't. That sort of makes the methodology bad.

It's quite clear that what you want is for every hole to be birdied, or at least very birdiable. If it's that important then we should just set par for every hole at five. Then players wouldn't have to take those lowly birdies that pros collect by the bucket full, they'd have eagles and albatrosses galore. The fans will be really impressed!

Par is an artificially set number. Basing it on a model that gets lots of birdies just says, I need lots of birdies. Is our sport so fragile that we can't set our standard based on reality?

At this point, you're ignoring about 80% of what's being written here by several posters. I admire your tenacity, but it's beginning to feel troll like.

Last, yes, the PDGA has a definition for par. It's not being followed either. That's part of what engendered the conversation.
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  #679  
Old 05-01-2017, 08:23 AM
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I miss wrote - it should have been the PDGA has a methodology for determining par, and it's not being followed.
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  #680  
Old 05-01-2017, 08:39 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by PMantle View Post
Are you being obtuse or do you just not know that par is defined in disc golf? Hell, the PDGA has an entire page devoted to it. What I posted came from a disc golf website.
Here is where to find the definition:

http://www.pdga.com/rules/official-r...02-definitions

See those terms PDGA, Rules, Official, and Definition in the link? I don't remember what you were looking at, but if it wasn't this, it's the wrong source.
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