#11  
Old 02-08-2019, 04:05 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
So, let's say the course has a lot of blind shots, and the TD decides to make the catch-cam operator a tournament official. Then the catch-cam person couldn't review the footage?
For the purposes of making a ruling? No, he/she couldn't.
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  #12  
Old 02-08-2019, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
So, let's say the course has a lot of blind shots, and the TD decides to make the catch-cam operator a tournament official. Then the catch-cam person couldn't review the footage?
Not exactly. The way it worked at the Memorial a few years ago when a cameraman discovered Ricky mis-entered some scores is he asked head official Downes about it. Downes went to the TD to gather Ricky's cardmates to review their shot counts on the holes in question. Then, they agreed to make the correction. So video evidence triggered the inquiry but the group had to remember the play without video assistance. In the case of blind shots, the group wouldn't be able to act even with prompting from the videographer or photographer since they presumably couldn't see the final motion of the disc.
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Old 02-08-2019, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
For the purposes of making a ruling? No, he/she couldn't.
So the (tournament official) catch-cam operator says: "If I look at the footage, I can't make the call; but I could describe what I see and you can make the call."

Would that the OK?
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Old 02-08-2019, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
So the (tournament official) catch-cam operator says: "If I look at the footage, I can't make the call; but I could describe what I see and you can make the call."

Would that the OK?
Nope. Especially not fair for catch-cam person to be making comments since every group doesn't have one filming them. If the event is big enough to have video, hopefully a qualified course expert has found these blind areas in advance to where a drop zone would be used so groups could make consistent calls. Or, the TD makes sure there's an official spotter on that hole for every group.
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Old 02-08-2019, 05:08 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Nope. Especially not fair for catch-cam person to be making comments since every group doesn't have one filming them. If the event is big enough to have video, hopefully a qualified course expert has found these blind areas in advance to where a drop zone would be used so groups could make consistent calls. Or, the TD makes sure there's an official spotter on that hole for every group.
I disagree with this, if we're talking about the camera person saying what they saw in real time and not what the video replay might have shown. If they're only reporting what they saw in real time, they are no different than any other observer who might happen to witness something. Shouldn't matter that they have a camera in hand.

I mean, by this logic (that they're not available to every group), you'd have to disallow all possible input from non-players. What if one of the players has a caddy that is sent down to spot the blind hole? The caddy isn't available to the rest of the groups, so does that render him unable to comment on what he saw that no one else did?
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Old 02-08-2019, 05:38 PM
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I
...
I mean, by this logic (that they're not available to every group), you'd have to disallow all possible input from non-players. What if one of the players has a caddy that is sent down to spot the blind hole? The caddy isn't available to the rest of the groups, so does that render him unable to comment on what he saw that no one else did?
That's pretty much where I was heading, except I wanted to use gallery members (which may include players in the same division as the group playing the hole).
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Old 02-08-2019, 05:45 PM
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Not exactly. The way it worked at the Memorial a few years ago when a cameraman discovered Ricky mis-entered some scores is he asked head official Downes about it. Downes went to the TD to gather Ricky's cardmates to review their shot counts on the holes in question. Then, they agreed to make the correction. So video evidence triggered the inquiry but the group had to remember the play without video assistance. In the case of blind shots, the group wouldn't be able to act even with prompting from the videographer or photographer since they presumably couldn't see the final motion of the disc.
That was a weird one. Weren't there 4 or 5 hole scores mismarked for Wysocki (at least one too high)? Did the PDGA look into what happened?

I wonder how that would have gone if Jomez published the video, but the scores weren't corrected because the players couldn't remember hole-by-hole shots. Bad, I think.
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Old 02-08-2019, 05:58 PM
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I don't have any problem if the catch-cam person makes a comment about what they saw in real time. The issue is whether they can look at the video or show to confirm. That seems to be the issue. It would be the same for a spectator filming. They could say what they saw but not show the replay on their camera or phone to the group as a way to confirm.
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Old 02-08-2019, 08:20 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
So the group could ask the catch-cam operator what happened. he/she could review the footage and describe what the footage shows?
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Originally Posted by mark996 View Post
Logically, seems to me that'd be fine, they're not directly using it, and they're taking the statement of a spectator at that point. ......
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
There's nothing preventing the camera person from reviewing the footage (the rules don't apply to him). And nothing preventing the group from taking what he tells them into account. That he went to the video to confirm what he may or may not have seen in real time doesn't really ever have to come up.
On first read through I agreed with mark996 & JC17393. But then going back to:

Quote:
QA-APP-10: Can video or other media be used as evidence to make a rules call?

PDGA policy is that video evidence can only be used to document player misconduct as defined under section 3.03 of the Competition Manual. Evidence of player misconduct may be evaluated at any time by the PDGA Disciplinary Committee. No other use of video or other media is allowed for the purpose of making rulings during tournament play.
I think it is arguable that players could be deemed to be making 'use of video or other media' to make their ruling. They are not actually viewing the footage, but they are (arguably) making use of it. The rules don't apply to the spectator but they do to the players, and by hearing the spectator recount the footage, the players (I think) can quite easily be said to be making use of the footage. The use of the word "use" in the phrase
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No other use of video
can be read in a general(broad?) sense of the word "use". It doesn't have to specifically mean to view directly.

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  #20  
Old 02-08-2019, 08:36 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Missed edit window

And it feels like a cleaner interpretation of the rule. It avoids "I can't look at your phone, but if you just play it back now and tell me everything you see....".

Of course a card can't know whether a spectator/catch-cam operator has reviewed any video unless they get told or they observe it....
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