#11  
Old 07-24-2018, 06:49 PM
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Consult20 Consult20 is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Are you cursing me?
Never David!

Now let me whip out my pencil and take some notes...

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  #12  
Old 07-24-2018, 07:23 PM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
My solution was more "fairness" than strictly by the book.

By the book, players are responsible for their card being turned in correctly, and if they don't all escort it back and turn it in together, they run this risk. But, practically speaking, we're not going to do that. I'm not sure the rules allow a TD to restore a score that was turned in incorrectly.....but I'd do it, anyway.

Similarly, DQ isn't quite in order---the event is over---and you can't ban someone from future events. I guess you could report him to the PDGA, and let them deal with it. But I'd make every attempt to make him persona non grata at my future events.

As well as make sure B's reputation remained mud for as long as I could.
I don't see why the TD couldn't restore the correct score to someone that has been pencil whipped/cheated. Seems like a perfectly logical extension of the "fairness" rule.

You can ban somebody from your private course though and therefore any tournaments held there.
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  #13  
Old 07-24-2018, 09:04 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
My solution was more "fairness" than strictly by the book.

By the book, players are responsible for their card being turned in correctly, and if they don't all escort it back and turn it in together, they run this risk. But, practically speaking, we're not going to do that. I'm not sure the rules allow a TD to restore a score that was turned in incorrectly.....but I'd do it, anyway.

Similarly, DQ isn't quite in order---the event is over---and you can't ban someone from future events. I guess you could report him to the PDGA, and let them deal with it. But I'd make every attempt to make him persona non grata at my future events.

As well as make sure B's reputation remained mud for as long as I could.
Why is DQ not in order for player B? A DQ would prevent him from benefiting from the pencil-whipping because he'd have to forfeit any prizes.

Scenario 1 is the one spot where DQ might be difficult if only because proving he misrepresented player A's score intentionally is tough to prove. I would think there'd need to be an admission in a case like that.

The other two where he's erasing the correct score to change it to an incorrect score...instant DQ. No question.

As for restoring player A's score, I think for the third scenario, in which he totaled his card correctly and had it changed on him after the fact, the TD has the discretion to give him his original correct score. The applicable rule is 808.G.1: Penalty throws may be added or removed up until the Director declares the tournament over, or all awards have been distributed. In the cases where player A never checked his card, I don't think he deserves the benefit of being saved the penalty.

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  #14  
Old 07-24-2018, 09:37 PM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Player B approached the TD and told the TD that he had intentionally changed the total on the scorecard to reflect the incorrect total.
^^^admission. i don't really see player A being subject to penalty given the above even though players who don't check their own score REALLY piss me off.

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  #15  
Old 07-24-2018, 10:13 PM
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Why is DQ not in order for player B? A DQ would prevent him from benefiting from the pencil-whipping because he'd have to forfeit any prizes.
Play is over; nothing to DQ him from. Restoring Player A's score means Player B gets no payout (scenario said this was for last cash).

Sure, I guess you can kick him out of the awards ceremony and change his results to 888, so he doesn't get points or ratings. That's pretty thin punishment.
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Old 07-24-2018, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Play is over; nothing to DQ him from. Restoring Player A's score means Player B gets no payout (scenario said this was for last cash).

Sure, I guess you can kick him out of the awards ceremony and change his results to 888, so he doesn't get points or ratings. That's pretty thin punishment.
The DQ for player misconduct comes with consequences. My thoughts are that it is the only proper penalty. It may be thin, but that's all that I can figure out that is applicable.

More facts:

TD DQ'd the player.
TD Restored Player A's correct score.
Another player would have cashed if Player A's score had not been restored.

As to the 888, in looking at the PDGA website, it appears that it is not appropriate for misconduct and only to be used for manipulating the score to affect ratings or tanking. I'm certainly uncertain about this though.

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  #17  
Old 07-24-2018, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Play is over; nothing to DQ him from. Restoring Player A's score means Player B gets no payout (scenario said this was for last cash).

Sure, I guess you can kick him out of the awards ceremony and change his results to 888, so he doesn't get points or ratings. That's pretty thin punishment.
While discussing the beercangate scandal _MTL_ said the disciplinary committee reviews all DQs.
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  #18  
Old 07-24-2018, 10:42 PM
ToddL ToddL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Play is over; nothing to DQ him from. Restoring Player A's score means Player B gets no payout (scenario said this was for last cash).

Sure, I guess you can kick him out of the awards ceremony and change his results to 888, so he doesn't get points or ratings. That's pretty thin punishment.
When you DQ someone, their results disappear completely from the results page. No awards, no points, no ratings. Unfortunately, the player has already had the enjoyment of playing, and they only suffer the penalty of their name not appearing on the results page. However, in a case like this, the PDGA would undoubtedly take a very strong stance. A DQ is far worse than an 888 in the eyes on the PDGA. Pencil-whipping another player's score is about the lowest of the low.


Last edited by ToddL; 07-24-2018 at 10:45 PM.
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  #19  
Old 07-25-2018, 06:52 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Play is over; nothing to DQ him from. Restoring Player A's score means Player B gets no payout (scenario said this was for last cash).

Sure, I guess you can kick him out of the awards ceremony and change his results to 888, so he doesn't get points or ratings. That's pretty thin punishment.
I once DQed two players who had already quit my tournament (DQ because they quit to preserve their rating but still wanted to throw off for the unhit ace pool at the end of the day). It's still a punishment. It still puts their misdeeds in the light they deserve. It may seem minor after the fact, but at least it puts it on record. I think not DQing because "it's over" gives the impression they got away with something.

Yes, DQ means no points, no ratings but it also means they're on the PDGA disciplinary radar. Suspension or some other discipline can follow if they're DQed. Not so if they're not.

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  #20  
Old 07-25-2018, 08:00 AM
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I stand corrected on the 888.

The proper result would probably lead to an assault charge, against Player A or the TD or someone, but general approval from everyone else.

Though I'm now wondering why Player B didn't just change his own score.

Because pencil-whipping with your own score earns you a lifetime of suspicion from the disc golf community---but changing someone else's is really beyond the pale. Not to mention the fact that Player A is more likely to notice his own score showing up wrong, than an opponent's.
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