#21  
Old 09-04-2018, 01:01 PM
IHearChains IHearChains is offline
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
You play the disc from the playing surface on which it rests. If a disc lands below a bridge and it is accessible to take a stance where it rests, that's where you play it from. You don't get to choose your playing surface.
Can you cite the specific rule please?
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  #22  
Old 09-04-2018, 01:20 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Wouldn't the burden be on finding a rule that says you can choose a different playing surface?

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  #23  
Old 09-04-2018, 01:31 PM
philstine philstine is offline
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Instead of trying to figure out what to do where things aren't marked, why not make a default rule declaring discs that come to rest on roots/logs anywhere on the course to be suspended above the playing surface? That way you would only have to mark/flag/declare the locations where you want to have stacked playing surfaces. Everything else is mark on the playing surace below the suspended disc and play proceeds according to whether the surface is in bounds or OB.

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Old 09-04-2018, 01:39 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Originally Posted by philstine View Post
Instead of trying to figure out what to do where things aren't marked, why not make a default rule declaring discs that come to rest on roots/logs anywhere on the course to be suspended above the playing surface? That way you would only have to mark/flag/declare the locations where you want to have stacked playing surfaces. Everything else is mark on the playing surace below the suspended disc and play proceeds according to whether the surface is in bounds or OB.
Thanks. I think that's where I'm heading, hoping I phrase it specifically enough. I'm not sure how I can screw up the description of roots and logs, but past experience tells me something will happen that I didn't foresee.

We actually have 3 potentially layered surfaces:

The creek undercuts actual land, sometimes as much as 6'. I don't think anyone would consider that actual land to be OB.

Bridges (that aren't logs), where we just went and declared all bridges inbounds, whether over water or not.

And the roots and logs, particularly groups of large roots, which are troublesome. But I think I'll add them to the rules (as not being playing surfaces).
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Old 09-04-2018, 02:02 PM
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krupicka krupicka is offline
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The question then ends up being what is a log vs a stick vs woodchips, etc.
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Old 09-04-2018, 02:05 PM
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It'll be like the time I wrote that if a drive didn't get over a fence, you had to re-tee.

I didn't imagine someone would find a way to throw under the fence. But of course they did.

So I learned to write "come to rest beyond the fence".
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  #27  
Old 09-04-2018, 02:07 PM
philstine philstine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHearChains View Post
Can you cite the specific rule please?
Inference, based on 805.01.C:

Quote:
If a disc first comes to rest above or below the playing surface, its position is on the playing surface directly below or above the disc.
and logical extension of the closest exsisting rules or principle embodied in the rules (801.01.A):

805.02.B:

Quote:
If the two-meter rule is in effect when a disc has come to rest at least two meters above the in-bounds playing surface (as measured from the lowest point of the disc to the playing surface directly below it), the player receives one penalty throw. The position of the disc is on the playing surface directly below the disc.
and QA-POS-1:

Quote:
QA-POS-1: How do I mark a disc in an inaccessible location below the playing surface like a crevice? Is there a penalty?

The rules that apply to a disc above the playing surface also apply to a disc below the playing surface. If you can locate your disc in the crevice and no reasonable stance can be taken there, you can mark your lie directly above it on the playing surface without penalty. If the point directly above the disc is in the air or within a solid object, mark your lie at the first available spot back along the line of play.
805.02.B establishes the general principle that discs suspened above a playing surface are to be marked on the playing surface below the disc.

The key phrase in QA-POS-1 is "in an inaccessible location," that is, QA-POS-1assumes that there are no additional playing surfaces below the disc in question, on which the disc can be marked and on which a stance can legally be taken. Consequently, QA-POS-1 does not address the question of whether suspended between stacked playing surfaces can be moved to the surface above, and so does not warrant marking the lie on a playing surface above the disc.

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  #28  
Old 09-04-2018, 05:08 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Wouldn't the burden be on finding a rule that says you can choose a different playing surface?
Bingo.

The lie is determined by the disc's position. If the disc's position is already on a playing surface, what rule allows you to move the lie from that position? The only ones I'm aware of are related to relief and are limited in terms of where you can move the lie (not to mention can come with a penalty as well). In general, the two options for where the lie can be moved are straight back on the line of play or to the previous lie (though there's also relief perpendicular to an OB line). There's nothing about moving it up or down to another playing surface.
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  #29  
Old 09-04-2018, 06:00 PM
philstine philstine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
The lie is determined by the disc's position. If the disc's position is already on a playing surface, what rule allows you to move the lie from that position?
And if it's NOT on a playing surface, e.g., suspended between two stacked playing surfaces (like stuck in the substructure of the bridge on hole 8, Buckhorn)?
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  #30  
Old 09-04-2018, 11:57 PM
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pauldst pauldst is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
I don't want to speak for David, but I think his question is tied to the stacked playing surface idea exemplified by the bridge as in-bounds. If it is a large log, or a downed tree that can be used as a bridge, should that be treated as if it were a bridge per QA-LIE-1?

By default, should this...



...be treated any differently than this?

I understand. It's just that stance was mentioned as a factor, and I think it shouldn't be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Good question.

The distinction between a rock or island surrounded by water, and a lot or root extending from shore, is that the latter are a continuous extension of the playing surface. At least in the sense that it is uninterrupted, from inbounds down the log.

As is the land that overhangs water, where a creek has undercut it, and is clearly OB.

Or would it be better to say the bridge is different, because the rules Q&A specifically mentioned bridge, not bridge-like features?
I think just saying a bridge is different makes sense.

Now on the fun side of things--and not suitable for tournament play, of course--it might be cool to make a log bridge the drop zone for discs that land in a creek. This would totally have to have the right situation, and would be a one time thing.
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