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Old 11-13-2018, 07:06 PM
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kerplunk kerplunk is offline
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Default Locating a disc for casual relief

I was spectating a friend's card recently and he threw into a large, deep, muddy puddle that was designated as casual water. It was a skins round, and the guy he was playing against mentioned that the disc would need to be found for my friend to get casual relief. I said that I thought the group could agree to the approximate location of the disc, but he replied if the disc was not found it must be treated as a lost disc, so rethrow with added stroke. Upon further reflection I agree, as much as I don't like it.

The disc ended up being found so it didn't really matter, but I thought you fellow rules enthusiasts would like this one.
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  #2  
Old 11-13-2018, 08:29 PM
ToddL ToddL is offline
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I had this issue pop up when I was a marshal at Am Worlds. You’re right that by the strictest letter of the law, the disc is lost.

One tricky thing is that the rules have a provision for an OB disc that can’t be found - 806.02.C “compelling evidence that the disc came to rest in an OB area” - but there’s no similar provision for a casual area. If it was up to me to make a rules call, I’d give it to him. I’d invoke the fairness doctrine 801.01.A and let the player take an approximate casual drop. And then bring the issue up to the rules committee and lobby for a clarification in the next revision.

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Old 11-13-2018, 08:40 PM
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Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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It's come up before and I agree with ToddL's commentary. Fairness rule applies for this situation similar to OB/Lost decision. A similar extension of the OB/lost rule can sometimes apply to discs likely stuck in a tree but can't be seen as long as the group saw it happen.
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Old 11-13-2018, 09:28 PM
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I would not extend that to discs up in a tree. Way too often I've seen players think it got caught in the tree, don't see it up there, and then find later that after all it did make it through the tree. That's quite different than seeing a disc splash down in a lake where you know it's not going to magically end up somewhere else.

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Old 11-13-2018, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
I would not extend that to discs up in a tree. Way too often I've seen players think it got caught in the tree, don't see it up there, and then find later that after all it did make it through the tree. That's quite different than seeing a disc splash down in a lake where you know it's not going to magically end up somewhere else.
The reason I would go with the tree interpretation assuming the group agrees is partly because the lost disc penalty is so brutal (should be changed) in comparison to thinking the disc is in the tree. The equivalent of two shots PLUS losing a disc is simply an over-the-top penalty for the "crime" of an offline throw with a fluky result, i.e., sticking in a tree versus falling out where there would be no penalty at all other than some loss of distance. I agree this would be my competition "fairness" ruling versus a strict rules interpretation.

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Old 11-13-2018, 10:05 PM
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Or the thrower could say "Well, the rules require all members of the group to look for a lost disc. So take off your shoes & socks, we're going to splash around in the water for three minutes."

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Old 11-13-2018, 11:00 PM
roblee roblee is offline
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QA-CAS-03=exactly as suggested by ToddL.

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Old 11-14-2018, 07:34 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roblee View Post
QA-CAS-03=exactly as suggested by ToddL.
Bingo. Already covered by the rule book, no need for guesswork. And it makes sense. The key thing is that the disc was seen going into the puddle with no chance of escape unseen, same as a presumed OB disc. You know it's in there even if you can't see it immediately.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
It's come up before and I agree with ToddL's commentary. Fairness rule applies for this situation similar to OB/Lost decision. A similar extension of the OB/lost rule can sometimes apply to discs likely stuck in a tree but can't be seen as long as the group saw it happen.
You keep bringing this up, and you're still incorrect, and I'm going to keep pointing it out. The OB/lost exception CANNOT be extended to a disc suspected of being in a tree, for the exact reasons that krupicka brings up. There's way too much chance that a disc can pass through through the tree or fall out and roll away unseen to assume that the disc entered the tree and stayed there.

Plus there's the matter of determining the lie. Assuming the disc is in the tree without actually spotting/locating it leaves you with no way to know the disc's position in order to have a lie to play from. Discs suspended above the playing surface are to be played from a lie directly below the disc. No disc, no directly below, no lie. It's lost.

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Old 11-14-2018, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Bingo. Already covered by the rule book, no need for guesswork. And it makes sense. The key thing is that the disc was seen going into the puddle with no chance of escape unseen, same as a presumed OB disc. You know it's in there even if you can't see it immediately.




You keep bringing this up, and you're still incorrect, and I'm going to keep pointing it out. The OB/lost exception CANNOT be extended to a disc suspected of being in a tree, for the exact reasons that krupicka brings up. There's way too much chance that a disc can pass through through the tree or fall out and roll away unseen to assume that the disc entered the tree and stayed there.

Plus there's the matter of determining the lie. Assuming the disc is in the tree without actually spotting/locating it leaves you with no way to know the disc's position in order to have a lie to play from. Discs suspended above the playing surface are to be played from a lie directly below the disc. No disc, no directly below, no lie. It's lost.
Unless there's a rule that directly says you can't apply the Fairness rule for the tree situation, you can apply the Fairness rule. The Fairness rule is there for a reason. It's like trying to say you can't use the Abandoned Throw rule because the TD said it wasn't an option for an OB area on their course. Abandoned Throw is essentially a permanent waiver just like the Fairness rule is a permanent waiver for equivalent situations not expressly denied in another rule or QA.

Last edited by Cgkdisc; 11-14-2018 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 11-14-2018, 09:01 AM
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That's just making up rules. Look, I saw my disc go into the big clump of leaves, I know we can't find it, but I'm going to use the fairness rule and take an approximate lie rather than suck it up and take my lost disc penalty.

There is a rule that applies here Chuck. Lost Disc. You don't get to make up other rules when there is a rule that already applies.

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