Disc Golf Course Review Locating a disc for casual relief
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#11
11-14-2018, 09:02 AM
 biscoe * Ace Member * Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: spotsylvania, va Years Playing: 23.8 Courses Played: 94 Posts: 6,063 Niced 1,096 Times in 521 Posts

how does a tree differ from tall grass (or any other lost disc situation that doesn't involve water)? we think it's in there somewhere, we just can't find it.

...and whether or not the lost disc penalty is 'brutal" is 100% irrelevant.

 Niced: (1)
#12
11-14-2018, 09:17 AM
 Cgkdisc .:Hall of Fame Member:. Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Twin Cities Years Playing: 30 Courses Played: 669 Throwing Style: RHBH Posts: 11,887 Niced 1,164 Times in 548 Posts

If the rules didn't already have the Lost vs OB rule where the group has to agree the disc landed in the OB area, then there wouldn't be an equivalency to compare with other situations where the same concept: "if group agrees that the disc landed there, then apply the appropriate rule for the lie" could be applied using the Fairness rule. But the Lost/OB rule IS in the book confirming this concept. This rule is the basis to apply this concept appropriately in other equivalent situations. The Fairness rule is there to handle these equivalencies when the situation is not expressly stated in the rules or QA to handled one way or the other.
#13
11-14-2018, 09:24 AM
 Steve West Par Delusionary Join Date: Dec 2009 Years Playing: 44.8 Courses Played: 326 Posts: 4,539 Niced 1,259 Times in 641 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Cgkdisc Unless there's a rule that directly says you can't apply the Fairness rule for the tree situation, you can apply the Fairness rule. ...
There is a rule that directly says you can't apply the Fairness rule for the tree situation. It's called the Fairness Rule.

Quote:
 801.01 Fairness A. These rules have been designed to promote fair play for all disc golfers. In using these rules, the player should apply the rule that most directly addresses the situation at hand. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision is made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness.

Sorry, but in a PDGA sanctioned tournament, we're no longer wandering around making up holes and rules as we go.

Back in the olden days, situations would often come up which had not been considered. After over forty years of competition and everyone looking at videos all day, there really are very few situations that are NOT covered by the rules.

At least restrain from knee-jerk applying the rules you know to every situation before trying to look up the real rule. It's not that hard. Start with the Index or use a search function.
#14
11-14-2018, 09:28 AM
 biscoe * Ace Member * Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: spotsylvania, va Years Playing: 23.8 Courses Played: 94 Posts: 6,063 Niced 1,096 Times in 521 Posts

The only reason the Lost/OB rule is in the book is to clarify which one takes precedence in a very specific situation. What you (Chuck)propose could literally be applied in every single instance of a lost disc. The group always knows it landed in some general area or another.

That being said i do feel the old lost disc rule ("last seen") was superior to what we have now.
#15
11-14-2018, 11:01 AM
 Steve West Par Delusionary Join Date: Dec 2009 Years Playing: 44.8 Courses Played: 326 Posts: 4,539 Niced 1,259 Times in 641 Posts

Opening this up to what the rules OUGHT to say sometime in the future.

If the rules change to always allowing playing from the lie that applies to where the disc is thought to be, then:
A lost disc that is OB would be played from where it went into OB (or DZ or whatever).

A lost disc that is in casual water would be played from back along the line of play from where the disc is thought to be.

A lost disc that is probably up a tree would be played from under where it is thought to be (or back along the line of play if subject to a two-meter penalty).
But, where should the lie be when the disc is thought to be lost on the ground in-bounds, not in any special place that provides for relocation of the lie? Go to a place in the tall grass near where the group guesses it might be? Mark a lie near some undergrowth? What about those discs that landed in the middle of the mowed grass and still can't be found?

It seems odd that a disc that is both OB and lost should result in a better lie than a disc that is merely lost.

My thinking is that whatever lie is played, it's almost certainly worse than the player would have been able to get with another throw. So, there would be no advantage to declaring a disc lost.

Is "last seen" the best way to approximate where the disc actually is?
#16
11-14-2018, 12:35 PM
 Cgkdisc .:Hall of Fame Member:. Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Twin Cities Years Playing: 30 Courses Played: 669 Throwing Style: RHBH Posts: 11,887 Niced 1,164 Times in 548 Posts

The Fairness rule goes all the way back to allow TDs and officials to rule on situations not expressly explained in the rules and later the QAs. The principles underlying the specific rules are used for situations not expressly delineated where those principles can be applied. The casual water and tree are examples where the principle of group sighting embodied in the specific lost/OB rule can be applied to "fairly" referee those situations. The Fairness rule is no different from a TD making a judgment call that doesn't violate a rule. In the case of allowing the group sighting of the disc disappearing in the casual water or tree, no rule is violated.

There should be minimal concern about abusing what some see as a "loophole" because the group by nature is going to be biased against giving the player a break unless the sighting was totally obvious to everyone in the group. The player is already losing a disc or use of it for awhile which for some is a greater penalty than a throw or two.

There's a fundamental game play conflict between two rules written back-to-back regarding how to resolve two possible interpretations. 801.02H states that the most severe penalty be applied when more than one possible. Then, 801.03A states the resolution when opinions are split evenly should go to benefit of the thrower. The "Fairness" rule would seem to go with the benefit to the thrower concept. Seems like many rules experts on the Committee and posting here lobby for punishment when the game itself is supposed to be fun with minimal to no unnecessary punishment. Hopefully, the RC will get the message and reconsider Lost disc and the rule mentioned above that applies the most severe penalty.
#17
11-14-2018, 12:54 PM
 biscoe * Ace Member * Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: spotsylvania, va Years Playing: 23.8 Courses Played: 94 Posts: 6,063 Niced 1,096 Times in 521 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Cgkdisc There should be minimal concern about abusing what some see as a "loophole" because the group by nature is going to be biased against giving the player a break unless the sighting was totally obvious to everyone in the group. The player is already losing a disc or use of it for awhile which for some is a greater penalty than a throw or two.
You obviously play with a different crowd than I do around here. In my experience groups will generally bend over backwards to give players a break.

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#18
11-14-2018, 12:56 PM
 biscoe * Ace Member * Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: spotsylvania, va Years Playing: 23.8 Courses Played: 94 Posts: 6,063 Niced 1,096 Times in 521 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Steve West Is "last seen" the best way to approximate where the disc actually is?
The best? perhaps not. Better than what we have now? almost certainly. It is less subject to individual interpretation than other ways of approximating a lie IMO.
#19
11-14-2018, 02:34 PM
 curmudgeonDwindle Par Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: CLT Years Playing: 39.6 Courses Played: 20 Throwing Style: LHBH Posts: 211 Niced 129 Times in 69 Posts

Despite its tendency to digress into minutia, I like a thread like this for educational purposes. It demonstrates the intentions behind the rules when one enters an unfamiliar or 'grey' situation that the rules do not 'specifically' cover (the 'whys' of the rules). This is really helpful for less experienced interpreters, when no expert consultant is nearby, then the less experienced may apply the process for themselves.

 Niced: (1)

#20
11-14-2018, 02:38 PM
 Cgkdisc .:Hall of Fame Member:. Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Twin Cities Years Playing: 30 Courses Played: 669 Throwing Style: RHBH Posts: 11,887 Niced 1,164 Times in 548 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by biscoe You obviously play with a different crowd than I do around here. In my experience groups will generally bend over backwards to give players a break.
And that's the way it should be. However, I'm not sure that spirit has carried over everywhere to the younger generations and the rule makers, as pointed out.