#51  
Old 11-19-2018, 07:39 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
...seeing a disc enter a tree, and not finding it anywhere else is still not compelling evidence that the disc is still in the tree...
I had just reached this point in my thinking as well.

I don't think there is any compelling evidence possible that a disc is in a tree, except for actually seeing it. It is too easy for it to blow through. I think it is impossible for a disc seen entering a tree to ever meet a 'compelling evidence' standard.
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  #52  
Old 11-19-2018, 09:09 AM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
The fairness rule consists of four sentences.

Sentence 1


This is an informational statement. It describes the intent behind the rules and brings in the concept of fair play. (Note it says 'promote' fairness, not 'ensure' or 'guarantee'.) And very importantly, it gives no instructions or rights or duties to us as players, in regards to fairness. Just information about the thinking behind the rules.

Sentence 2

This is a direct instruction. If a rule already exist that covers the situation, you apply that rule. This is a very simple, concrete instruction - you apply the rule that fits. This is the first duty that the fairness rule gives the player.

Sentence 3

This is a conditional direct instruction. If there are no rules to cover the situation then you use the principle of fairness. This is the second duty/right that the fairness rule gives the player, and it is only if the condition of 'no existing rule' is met.

Sentence 4


This is guidance. Guidance as what to do when and only when Sentence 3 has been invoked. It is here that the idea of extending existing rules or principles, to cover holes in the rules is first raised. But really importantly, it is only in the situation when the condition in Sentence 3 has been met. It does not give a general right to a player to extend rules for any reason other than when there is no existing rule.

None of the four sentences that make up the fairness rule give a player permission to amend/alter/extend rules simply on the basis of them being deemed unfair by a player or card. To think otherwise is to completely misread the actual text.

Can you point to the actual text in the fairness rule that gives this power?

Your Cedar tree scenario fails to get past Sentence 2. It fails to meet the condition in Sentence 3 and therefore Sentence 4 never comes into use. And Sentence 1 doesn't give any power to act.

It seems you are jamming Sentence 1 and Sentence 4 together, assuming powers that aren't given, and totally ignoring Sentence 2 and 3. This leads to false interpretations of the rules.

This feels analogous to 'benefit of the doubt'. As written it is simply a tie breaker for group decisions, but people seem to quote it a lot (on Reddit) to justify all sorts of things not actually covered by the rule.
He spelled out exactly what I was saying. Chuck, I hear ya, but like others I also disagree. Applying part 4 BEFORE confirming and the group agreeing that parts 2 & 3 apply is conflating the rule, and that's what it appears you using as your defining argument. You must first agree that parts 2 & 3 are true before Rule of Fairness can be applied.
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  #53  
Old 11-19-2018, 03:17 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
The Lost/OB rule principle indicates the meaning of "locate" can be "compelling evidence the disc is within an area or volume with defined boundaries"
Nah, you're bending stuff well out of shape there.
For 806.02.C to come into play, the disc must be considered lost in the first place. It must have met the standard for a lost disc ie 'can not be located' (and have been looked for 3 mins!). AND at the same time it must meet the different and lower standard of 'compelling evidence'. 806.02.C is used when a disc meets TWO different standards of whereabouts at the same time. ie the discs whereabouts is not known precisely enough to point at it, but it is known generally enough to say it is in an OB area (however big that is).

It is normal in games where you have two rules that can overlap, that you have a special case rule determining how you proceed. But the existence of the special case rule DOES NOT change the fundamental standards of either of the first two rules. You've tried to argue that if a disc is lost AND there is compelling evidence that it is OB that this has some backwards ability to change the definition/standard of what it means to be lost. From 'can not be located' to 'compelling evidence'. Not true. And also relevant; 'compelling evidence' is not the standard in the normal application of the OB rules, the disc must be located!

It just comes down to:
If A is true, then do X.
If B is true, then do Y.
If A & B are true, then do Y

It does not mean
If A & B are true, then A=B.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
As a side note, several rules updates ago, I along with several TDs and marshals had been pushing to add this equivalency to the QAs because we had already been applying Fairness with PDGA approval many times even in the highest level tournaments to deal with existing swampy casual areas or when sudden, murky casual water areas popped up from heavy rainfall before or during a round.
Interesting. Having a casual water equivalent for 806.02.C is great, and seems fitting & appropriate. (Though I think it should be included in the main section of the rules and not tacked on in the Q&A). Thank you. And I agree with your broader belief, that using fairness, and extending principles is a great way to look at future amendments to the rule book. But doing it on the fly when it goes against the rules as written? I have no experience of this, but I guess if put in place for the whole of a tournament, ie announced in players meeting? But it's surely not OK by individual cards off their own backs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
I can understand the RC not wanting to try and comprehensively cite every possible defined area where compelling evidence could indicate the disc is in it.
There probably aren't that many; OB, casual & relief? Again, no experience of it, but I'm guessing hazard areas are used more like golf bunkers, so little lost disc potential.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
But to not allow other equivalent defined areas/volumes to have the same principle applied, using OB and casual areas as specific examples, would be unfair, and Fairness is the first rule in the book.
Sounds good to me, but only through a change to the rule book, not on the fly. The fairness rule does not allow it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Ideally, rather than cite various exceptions in the QA, the RC could consider trying to codify this general principle to something like: "when the group thinks there's compelling evidence a disc is located in a defined area such as OB, casual or relief areas, hazards, specific tree, sewer or building, apply the appropriate marking rule for that defined area."
Sounds good, but wouldn't it be better to restrict it to the already defined regulated areas? I think specific trees should not be included, for the reasons given above. And sewers, buildings etc seem like great candidates for being designated casual areas by the TD beforehand. I'm guessing there isn't any benefit in giving players a judgement call on what constitutes a 'defined area'.
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  #54  
Old 12-03-2018, 05:03 PM
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dobbins66 dobbins66 is offline
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Originally Posted by ToddL View Post
I had this issue pop up when I was a marshal at Am Worlds.
Hole #2 at Reedy Creek?
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  #55  
Old 12-03-2018, 05:22 PM
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dobbins66 dobbins66 is offline
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Originally Posted by dobbins66 View Post
Hole #2 at Reedy Creek?
Actually Hole #3
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  #56  
Old 12-06-2018, 07:55 PM
ToddL ToddL is offline
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Originally Posted by dobbins66 View Post
Actually Hole #3
Yup.
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  #57  
Old 12-29-2018, 11:14 AM
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dobbins66 dobbins66 is offline
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Originally Posted by ToddL View Post
Yup.
I was in that group. We knew it had to have rolled into the water but had no way to prove it.
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