#11  
Old 01-02-2019, 01:43 PM
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krupicka krupicka is offline
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Question to see how others would rule. Player A land close enough to OB that he measures out 1m to place his marker. Player B sees player A doing this and is standing about 20-25 ft away. After Player A throws, Player B invokes 806.02.H and wants player A to take a one throw penalty as he didn't have a chance to verify that player A was indeed inbounds. This is in a park like setting (not in the woods). Other players in group are on opposite side of the fairway.
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  #12  
Old 01-02-2019, 01:54 PM
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Sounds like a really stupid effing question. Par for the course with the PDGA lol.

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  #13  
Old 01-02-2019, 02:03 PM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
Question to see how others would rule. Player A land close enough to OB that he measures out 1m to place his marker. Player B sees player A doing this and is standing about 20-25 ft away. After Player A throws, Player B invokes 806.02.H and wants player A to take a one throw penalty as he didn't have a chance to verify that player A was indeed inbounds. This is in a park like setting (not in the woods). Other players in group are on opposite side of the fairway.
Sounds like he had a chance to verify to me but it would come down to he said/she said nonsense. There is really not quite enough info here to make an educated judgement. If the bolded part includes Player A arriving at the lie in question and then doing the measuring with player B in place 20 feet away the whole time I would tend to side with Player A. Is this an actual case? If so, hopefully i will not be subjected to a round with Player B any time soon.
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Old 01-02-2019, 02:42 PM
DG_player DG_player is offline
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It seems odd to me that there is an assumption of guilt if a player marks and throws from a location near OB without group confirmation, but if he throws from in the woods he gets the "benefit of the doubt" that he did no cheat and move his lie to a location where he has a better stance or throwing lane.

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Old 01-02-2019, 03:05 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
It seems odd to me that there is an assumption of guilt if a player marks and throws from a location near OB without group confirmation, but if he throws from in the woods he gets the "benefit of the doubt" that he did no cheat and move his lie to a location where he has a better stance or throwing lane.
The rules don't grant the player in your second situation "benefit of the doubt". The group is doing so, arguably against the rules of play.

Rule 812.B.2 requires that all players "[w]atch the other members of the group throw in order to ensure rules compliance and to help locate discs". In the first example (the test question scenario), the player is throwing from a location before the group can arrive to confirm the disc's status, in violation of 806.02.H. That's on the thrower. In the second example, unless the thrower rushed into the woods and threw out before any of the rest of the group had a chance to put themselves in a position to watch him*, the group is failing to uphold their obligation to watch the thrower closely enough to ensure he plays from his proper lie.

*I find it unlikely that a player would be able to execute that quickly if we're talking about a position in which he is obscured from view of the other players even if they're nearby and trying to observe.

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  #16  
Old 01-02-2019, 03:21 PM
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"H. If the thrower moves the disc before a determination regarding its out-of-bounds
status has been made, the disc is considered to be out-of-bounds"

I'm really struggling with this wording.

It makes the default position that all discs are OB until ruled on by the group. On any shot at any time, no matter how ridiculous it may seem.

Or am i missing something that offsets this? That it is in the OB section doesn't really make any difference with the wording.
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Old 01-02-2019, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rhatton1 View Post
"H. If the thrower moves the disc before a determination regarding its out-of-bounds
status has been made, the disc is considered to be out-of-bounds"

I'm really struggling with this wording.

It makes the default position that all discs are OB until ruled on by the group. On any shot at any time, no matter how ridiculous it may seem.

Or am i missing something that offsets this? That it is in the OB section doesn't really make any difference with the wording.
There's an underlying assumption of reasonable interpretation when applying the rules. 801.02.B is meant to provide an entrance for reason when considering a penalty decision.

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Players are expected to call a violation when one has clearly occurred. A call must be made promptly to be enforceable (except for misplays).
(But if you want to continue your line of argument, you should toss in the 30 second rule.)
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Old 01-02-2019, 03:51 PM
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rhatton1 rhatton1 is offline
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There's an underlying assumption of reasonable interpretation when applying the rules. 801.02.B is meant to provide an entrance for reason when considering a penalty decision

Agreed but we're on a hypothetical here already, how close is resaonable interpretation enough for a group determination to be required? An inch, a foot, a meter? 10? IS it entirely situational? Maybe change the wording to any lies within a meter of OB should be confirmed by the group or something similar, and if someone has moved without confirmation they could be subject to the penalty. Gives a clear instruction to the player as to when to call for confirmation.
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Old 01-02-2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by rhatton1 View Post
Agreed but we're on a hypothetical here already, how close is resaonable interpretation enough for a group determination to be required? An inch, a foot, a meter? 10? IS it entirely situational? Maybe change the wording to any lies within a meter of OB should be confirmed by the group or something similar, and if someone has moved without confirmation they could be subject to the penalty. Gives a clear instruction to the player as to when to call for confirmation.
I'd ask my cardmates if anyone wants to verify based on whether I'd want them to ask if our situation was reversed. It's the same criteria you use to ask if you're near the edge of the circle.
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  #20  
Old 01-02-2019, 04:23 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by rhatton1 View Post
Agreed but we're on a hypothetical here already, how close is resaonable interpretation enough for a group determination to be required? An inch, a foot, a meter? 10? IS it entirely situational? Maybe change the wording to any lies within a meter of OB should be confirmed by the group or something similar, and if someone has moved without confirmation they could be subject to the penalty. Gives a clear instruction to the player as to when to call for confirmation.
It is entirely situational and I think it has to be entirely situational. If you put an exact distance on it (call it within X of OB), you're still creating a situation where a player who is near that area will just claim "it was X+1 away from the line" if questioned about the unseen disc's status after the player has moved the disc.

806.02.H really only should come into play if there is anyone in the group that has reason to dispute the status of a disc. In other words, if a player walks up to his disc, marks it, and throws his next shot and no one in the group objects, there is no penalty and no need for assumption of OB.

The thing to keep in mind as well is that the decision to assess the penalty is a group one. If in this hypothetical situation, one group member wants to say the disc may have been OB, the rest of the group can shut it down if they find that the status of the disc isn't in question. They're less likely to do that the closer to the OB area that the thrower was.

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