#21  
Old 07-28-2021, 05:51 PM
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the_lung the_lung is offline
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Steve,

Can you do your hole analysis? I’m interested about the scoring separation. I’m curious as to whether the course “did its job” in that regard.
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  #22  
Old 07-28-2021, 06:21 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Steve,

Can you do your hole analysis? I’m interested about the scoring separation. I’m curious as to whether the course “did its job” in that regard.
Nah, they already modified the course so there's no point now. Maybe after the event.
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Old 07-28-2021, 07:46 PM
biscoe biscoe is online now
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Thank you smarkquart for the very nice write up and especially the YouTube video. I really appreciate the filming and the efforts you took.

I really do want to be optimistic about this year’s layout, because it really has nowhere to go but up. Remember last year saw -15,-17, and -16 as hot rounds of the day. If you shot -8 each round last year, you made last cash. If you shot -9 each round, (-27 total) you only placed in a tie for 25th. If you wanted to place inside the top 25, you had to shoot under par on over half the course…basically birdie more than half of the 18 holes each round. Shooting a score of par 64 was a 946-rated round. You had to shoot -7 to have a round rated higher than 1000.

That’s just not what we should be seeing in a DGPT Elite Series event.
Last year's event had one of the more exciting final rounds of the whole season regardless of how par was set. From DGPT's perspective I'm guessing that was a success.

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Old 07-28-2021, 10:15 PM
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That’s just not what we should be seeing in a DGPT Elite Series event.
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Just because the pars on holes #1, #4, #10, #11, #15 and #18 were too high, that doesn't mean the course didn't do its job. It only means par was too high.

However, a bunch of scores in the 40s is a bit of a concern.
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Last year's event had one of the more exciting final rounds of the whole season regardless of how par was set. From DGPT's perspective I'm guessing that was a success.
In an ideal world, an event would meet everyone's expectations. I agree with all of these comments (especially the desire for courses to be more difficult), but Biscoe's is particularly insightful. If the DGPT is putting out a good product, people will watch regardless of whether the winning score is -5 or -50. And when people watch, the $$$ comes in, which is what DGPT is after.

On a different note, I'm very interested in the two new par 5s (7 and 9?), especially the 1500' one. Seeing how pros play this hole will be a good test case for whether to design holes even longer than the current ones on the tour. Will it provide a fair scoring separation? Will only the big arms get it, or will they struggle too?

Doesn't seem like the course will play too differently. I wouldn't be surprised to see a -15, I'd expect -14, and I think multiple different people will get to -13.
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Old 07-29-2021, 06:09 AM
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The problem I have with super long (especially mostly open) holes is that theyre not the most intuitive to follow on coverage. Even if you have the drone flyover and a map, its mostly just "okay that throw went somewhere, really dont know where, maybe the announcers can tell me" times x, until discs start to land within putting range. And its even more acute when the players get separated and are slowly making their way through the hole, meandering about each in their own solitude. Forget whos on what throw now, tune out, start to think about todays dinner... Theres no instant visual feedback of "oh my god, he threaded THAT gap from that far out and he's putting now" of when the hole and what is required is apparent, which tough par 3s and well designed par 4s can give you.

Unless there are really specific and easily identifiable landing zones or tunnels to hit that require specific lines to get there.

Anyone think of a good par 5 where that happens?

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Old 07-29-2021, 09:27 AM
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The problem I have with super long (especially mostly open) holes is that theyre not the most intuitive to follow on coverage. Even if you have the drone flyover and a map, its mostly just "okay that throw went somewhere, really dont know where, maybe the announcers can tell me" times x, until discs start to land within putting range. And its even more acute when the players get separated and are slowly making their way through the hole, meandering about each in their own solitude. Forget whos on what throw now, tune out, start to think about todays dinner... Theres no instant visual feedback of "oh my god, he threaded THAT gap from that far out and he's putting now" of when the hole and what is required is apparent, which tough par 3s and well designed par 4s can give you.

Unless there are really specific and easily identifiable landing zones or tunnels to hit that require specific lines to get there.

Anyone think of a good par 5 where that happens?
Yeah, being able to say "oh they passed that tree/gap/bush/hill/other feature" is really helpful for longer holes. I think hole 7 could do that well, but hole 9 doesn't seem like it will. It's a 70' wide fairway half of the way, and then its 200' wide until the pin. Seeing that the trees on the left are farther away is one feature, but a hole needs many for good distinction.
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Old 07-29-2021, 09:36 AM
smarkquart smarkquart is offline
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Originally Posted by Ryan P. View Post
On a different note, I'm very interested in the two new par 5s (7 and 9?), especially the 1500' one. Seeing how pros play this hole will be a good test case for whether to design holes even longer than the current ones on the tour. Will it provide a fair scoring separation? Will only the big arms get it, or will they struggle too?
Here is how I played them. Keep in mind that I regularly top out between 390 and 420 with my best maybe reaching 445.

Hole 7 - 1111 feet. Water immediately off the tee. There are two ponds, but the second pond should not come into play. The first pond is shaped like the number seven, so you have two options. 1) Go straight over and dump left. You will have to clear the water again on your second shot. 2) Go immediately right to cross the first time. You will not have to cross again, but you have added distance to the hole.

I drove forward to chew distance but also to ensure that my Wraith would fade back in bounds on the left. I went big again with the Wraith, crossing the water one more time, going for the open field on the right. I thought I easily cleared the water, but distance was a little deceptive. I cleared with maybe less than 20 feet to spare. I have a rangefinder, but I was not reaching this in two, so why bother? I should have used it to have a better idea of the water carry I needed to accomplish. At this point, I was within 380 of the basket. The 1111 is as the crow flies, and while I cannot judge someone with 600+ foot power, anyone less is definitely taking water into consideration and might be adding some distance. The basket is on the uphill slope of Lynx 4, so it had one large guardian tree about 90 feet in front of the basket. There is a line of trees behind the basket that slopes into a mini-gulch. You overshoot the basket, you are essentially pitching back out. Rollaways in Circle 1 are a huge risk. There is an old sand trap at the bottom of this slope to catch those rollaways. I threw a Lucid Evader because it needed to track left to right to clear the guardian tree and finish uphill to the right. I overshot Circle 1 and landed about 30 out but in the treeline. I had a window but blew the difficult putt. Tap in 5. I had an opportunity for a 4, but everything had to be perfect. Par 5 seems reasonable.

Hole 9 - 1499 feet. You are shooting across numerous Lynx fairways, essentially making a huge and wide central fairway with trees left and right. They should not be a factor unless you have griplock issues when you power up. The initial drive needs to clear water immediately off the tee, but it is something like a 250-foot carry and should not be an issue. There is a lot of tall(er) grass in the middle of the fairways, to keep the traditional fairways defined. While it may slow rollers, it would not completely prohibit it. Of course, I played this course when the layout was finished but they were still putting touches on it. They may have mowed these dividers. First shot was with a Wraith. I wish I could have gotten more, but I was ensuring I was making the water carry while still landing in a clean spot. For most of the hole, it is a gradual right turn, so the closer you stay to the trees on the right, the more distance you are biting off. Went big with the Wraith a second time. At this point you can see the basket. It is on the golf green on Timberwolf 7. The green is slightly elevated and surrounded by a creek (which is completely dry). The backside of Circle 1 drops off into a sandpit that is meant to protect you from the creek below. If in the sandpit, you can be 20 feet from the basket and still be completely under it. My third shot was with the Wraith one more time. I have lost track which Lynx hole this is, but it is the putter-drive with the uphill slope protected by a few mature trees that are separate from the main treeline on the right. I landed in that fairway with 240 left to go. I used a Zone to put me within 20 feet. In the end, I took a 5. Par was 5. It took everything I had to get par. So, Par 5 is likely a good par for the pros. If I threw anything less than 380 or so on each of my drives, this is 6 or a 7.
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Old 07-29-2021, 10:37 AM
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BuiltTooLong BuiltTooLong is online now
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Originally Posted by Flick Maniac View Post
The problem I have with super long (especially mostly open) holes is that theyre not the most intuitive to follow on coverage. Even if you have the drone flyover and a map, its mostly just "okay that throw went somewhere, really dont know where, maybe the announcers can tell me" times x, until discs start to land within putting range. And its even more acute when the players get separated and are slowly making their way through the hole, meandering about each in their own solitude. Forget whos on what throw now, tune out, start to think about todays dinner... Theres no instant visual feedback of "oh my god, he threaded THAT gap from that far out and he's putting now" of when the hole and what is required is apparent, which tough par 3s and well designed par 4s can give you.

Unless there are really specific and easily identifiable landing zones or tunnels to hit that require specific lines to get there.

Anyone think of a good par 5 where that happens?
Hole 12 of Northwood Gold
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  #29  
Old 07-29-2021, 11:22 AM
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That the awesome hole that almost noboby birdies? Goes right most of the way, with a steep dip in the middle part? Yeah, that is pretty good.

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  #30  
Old 07-29-2021, 03:23 PM
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That the awesome hole that almost noboby birdies? Goes right most of the way, with a steep dip in the middle part? Yeah, that is pretty good.
You are correct about hole 12 at NW Gold. I can think of other true par 5s (looking at you Steve W) holes. Here are the par 5s I can think of on tour and whether or not the parts of the fairway are different enough to distinguish from a viewing perspective. From my memory, it seems that almost half of the 5s are clear, almost half are clear at some points but not others, and a few are generally unclear.
  • Vintage Open hole 16 is clear: https://youtu.be/rsE06MSUDAw?t=1169
  • DDO Hole 9 is clear (but not hole 1): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUxrD34MdPs
  • Mid America Open, 1, 9, and 18 (though 9 is a slightly soft par 5 and I wonder how it'd score with top pros) are clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9j7TAmNZQA
  • Utah Open, wooded course, hole 9 is clear
  • one of the par 5s at the most recent OTB open (but not the other two) The one that is clear to me is the one that turns right then goes over a pond. The first one of the three (hole 5?) might get better as more pros play it.
  • Winthrop Gold hole 5 and 13 are good at distinguishing in some places. There are some distinct features on them, but I think I see those holes well because I've played them multiple times, not because their features show up on camera.
  • that long hole at the beaver state fling (not sure which course, but between 13-15, almost 1200') has a lot of trees but the second half of it is hard to distinguish
  • that par 5 on the front half of the Beast at the European Open is okay. I don't remember it well, but it seems like the distinguishing features are the OB for most of the way (not the beginning and end though) and OB isn't easy to see.
  • NOT hole 7 at one of the courses at the Green Mountain Challenge. 1200'+ with OB left and a tree line on the right. The only distinguishing feature are the trees 400' off the tee, which many pros throw past on the drive.
  • hornet's nest hole 17 is hard to tell in the first half because there are so many trees that all look similar. I never know how long it is before the turn, whether the turn is 40' away or 200'.
  • delaware (iron hill) long par 5 where the basket is on a 40' wide mound (Seppo Paju eagled it a few years back) seems to be clear.
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