#2321  
Old 09-14-2020, 08:54 PM
DG_player DG_player is offline
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I thought the whole "hard lockdown" was to slow the spread to not overwhelm hospitals. That way we can treat the ppl that have a difficult time with this virus accordingly.

Its not a attempt to STOP it from spreading, that wont happen. We just dont want to lose a sh@t ton of lives just because ppl couldnt get the treatment they need.
That's what we were told initially, and certainly some metro areas were on the brink. However most areas never got close and the others are well past that point.

If you make it through this thing without catching it, either one of two things, you were lucky, or you were vigilant and took personal responsibility for your own health. What's so wrong with expecting people to take personal responsibility for their own health, instead of dictating every little activity they are and aren't allowed to do? If a bunch of guys want to get together to go for a motorcycle ride or play a round of DG, and have some beers, what right does anyone have to tell them not to? If they're willing to take the risks and consequences, what business is it of anyone else's?

The second issue is, even if you think you should be able to tell people what to do, how realistic is? What marginal benefit are you actually gaining by shutting stuff down? I don't know where you live, but where i live there are two types of people: people who care and people who don't care. All of the restrictions in my area have basically accomplished one thing: They have restricted people who cared and businesses who cared from activities that could have been done in a safe manner. The "I don't cares" are still doing the same thing they would have been otherwise. I honestly don't see the point of it all.
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  #2322  
Old 09-14-2020, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
That's what we were told initially, and certainly some metro areas were on the brink. However most areas never got close and the others are well past that point.

If you make it through this thing without catching it, either one of two things, you were lucky, or you were vigilant and took personal responsibility for your own health. What's so wrong with expecting people to take personal responsibility for their own health, instead of dictating every little activity they are and aren't allowed to do? If a bunch of guys want to get together to go for a motorcycle ride or play a round of DG, and have some beers, what right does anyone have to tell them not to? If they're willing to take the risks and consequences, what business is it of anyone else's?

The second issue is, even if you think you should be able to tell people what to do, how realistic is? What marginal benefit are you actually gaining by shutting stuff down? I don't know where you live, but where i live there are two types of people: people who care and people who don't care. All of the restrictions in my area have basically accomplished one thing: They have restricted people who cared and businesses who cared from activities that could have been done in a safe manner. The "I don't cares" are still doing the same thing they would have been otherwise. I honestly don't see the point of it all.
If a bunch of guys want to get smashed and drive home drunk, what is the harm. The answer is the impact and harm they can cause to others. The interventions are about protecting others from you. You, of course, being the group of people you describe as not caring. They are always the problem. I think, the I don't cares are comprised of two groups....the sad and selfish and the ignorant. Restrictions have a decent chance of modifying the behavior of the ignorant.

Close all the bars and indoor gathering places and you even prevent the sad and selfish from participating in the most dangerous superspread activities.

I don't want to see any lock down. But, I don't see much choice. If the selfish and ignorant were only causing harm to themselves and each other, I would be fine....but, that is opposite of the case.

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Old 09-14-2020, 09:51 PM
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etdefender19 etdefender19 is online now
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What right does the gubmint have to tell me I can’t get drunk, drive however fast I want, pay attention to only the road signs I feel like paying attention to, drive in whatever lane I feel like, or to tell me I have to stop just because the light is red?

Most rules, laws, moral guides, or whatever are there because people are too f*cking selfish and/or stupid to safely take care of themselves and/or others


Last edited by etdefender19; 09-14-2020 at 09:55 PM.
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  #2324  
Old 09-14-2020, 10:05 PM
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Ah, that tattered strawman. By now, people should realize that precautions and restrictions aren't about their health alone, but about whether you'll be allowed to participate in spreading a virus that will devastate others. If they don't, they're either unwilling to learn, or unable to learn.

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  #2325  
Old 09-14-2020, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ru4por View Post
If a bunch of guys want to get smashed and drive home drunk, what is the harm. The answer is the impact and harm they can cause to others. The interventions are about protecting others from you. You, of course, being the group of people you describe as not caring. They are always the problem. I think, the I don't cares are comprised of two groups....the sad and selfish and the ignorant. Restrictions have a decent chance of modifying the behavior of the ignorant.

Close all the bars and indoor gathering places and you even prevent the sad and selfish from participating in the most dangerous superspread activities.

I don't want to see any lock down. But, I don't see much choice. If the selfish and ignorant were only causing harm to themselves and each other, I would be fine....but, that is opposite of the case.
There's a difference between driving home drunk and being sick. Unless you work in healthcare*, got sick very early on, or are stuck in a nursing home, if you catch it, there is a strong component of personal choices you made that contributed. People aren't dying from cooking at home and running to the store once a week. I don't think it's fair to blame someone who is sick, when a choice you made put you in the position to be infected by them.

But beyond that, look at our deaths and what would have been effective in preventing them. I don't know what the recent statistics are but i read a bit back that 50% or so of all of the US deaths occurred in personal care homes. If we would have taken a fraction of the money we spent bailing out the economy because of the lockdown, and used it to fortify personal care homes instead, we'd be in much better shape. It wouldn't have taken much. All it would have taken is the federal or state government stepping in, and saying, "you know what, if you have a sniffle or think you're sick, don't worry about your rent or bills, we'll pay you to stay home until you're tested, which we'll also pay for." Instead we shut down a ton of low risk economic activities, and left the most dangerous and deadly thing in the pandemic continue to operate dysfunctionally.

The defense mechanism for a pandemic shouldn't be "hope people are altruistic" or "shutdown the country". It's great to have this idealogical discussion about how everyone should not be idiots and should alter their lives to protect some high risk person they don't know. It's not realistic and it hasn't accomplished anything. We're 6 months in and there are still people who are idiots or don't care about other people or have some ill-conceived ideological objection. Do you think 6 more months of calling people stupid and selfish is going to change anything? We need a sustainable, targeted plan.

* I realize you work in healthcare, and think you and all your peers deserve extensive praise and recognition

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  #2326  
Old 09-14-2020, 11:43 PM
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Lol "high risk person they dont know"

***not realizing the only reason you are able to post this is because of the high-risk ppl that gave birth to you"
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  #2327  
Old 09-14-2020, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jakebake91 View Post
It's not "one or the other". Its not a political battle. It's common sense. Or at least, it should be.
Yep.

Attention kids: it pays to actually pay attention in science class.

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  #2328  
Old 09-14-2020, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
. . . All it would have taken is the federal or state government stepping in, and saying, "you know what, if you have a sniffle or think you're sick, don't worry about your rent or bills, we'll pay you to stay home until you're tested, which we'll also pay for."
If I could get across one thing to everyone it would be that 40% of infections are asymptomatic (no sniffles, etc.) and that asymptomatic people are 75% as infectious as symptomatic people. This is based on current CDC best estimates:

COVID-19 Pandemic Planning Scenarios | CDC

Otherwise there is much that I agree with in your post.

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  #2329  
Old 09-15-2020, 01:30 AM
txmxer txmxer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
There's a difference between driving home drunk and being sick. Unless you work in healthcare*, got sick very early on, or are stuck in a nursing home, if you catch it, there is a strong component of personal choices you made that contributed. People aren't dying from cooking at home and running to the store once a week. I don't think it's fair to blame someone who is sick, when a choice you made put you in the position to be infected by them.

But beyond that, look at our deaths and what would have been effective in preventing them. I don't know what the recent statistics are but i read a bit back that 50% or so of all of the US deaths occurred in personal care homes. If we would have taken a fraction of the money we spent bailing out the economy because of the lockdown, and used it to fortify personal care homes instead, we'd be in much better shape. It wouldn't have taken much. All it would have taken is the federal or state government stepping in, and saying, "you know what, if you have a sniffle or think you're sick, don't worry about your rent or bills, we'll pay you to stay home until you're tested, which we'll also pay for." Instead we shut down a ton of low risk economic activities, and left the most dangerous and deadly thing in the pandemic continue to operate dysfunctionally.

The defense mechanism for a pandemic shouldn't be "hope people are altruistic" or "shutdown the country". It's great to have this idealogical discussion about how everyone should not be idiots and should alter their lives to protect some high risk person they don't know. It's not realistic and it hasn't accomplished anything. We're 6 months in and there are still people who are idiots or don't care about other people or have some ill-conceived ideological objection. Do you think 6 more months of calling people stupid and selfish is going to change anything? We need a sustainable, targeted plan.

* I realize you work in healthcare, and think you and all your peers deserve extensive praise and recognition

Your pragmatic approach is fine but how does it translate to the bigger picture?

These problems must be solved in the real world, not the how it should be world.

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  #2330  
Old 09-15-2020, 08:42 AM
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Again, more "good sense", than science. But this article highlights how lockdowns can have an immediate impact on high risk groups. Religious services are one of the potentially biggest super spreader events. You CANNOT count on most religious folks to make the best decisions on their own behalf. People should know better than to attend, but they don't.

Keeping my aging parents away from church, has been the single biggest challenge. It was the primary reason for taking away my 90 y/o father in laws keys. They believe God will protect them and going a couple days a week is a long ingrained activity.

https://bestlifeonline.com/places-of-worship-covid/

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