Laser etching discs

[Steve West]

Originally Posted by Cgkdisc

...who would be able to measure or know whether laser etching affected flight characteristics more than observable natural changes in a disc's flight characteristics due to usage and abusage over time? ...

The rules say: "such that its original flight characteristics have been altered". It does not offer safe harbor of: no more than if it had been played with.

If a disc has been laser-etched such that it flies exactly like a beat-in disc, that would be an illegal disc because of the method of modification.

The only legal ways to alter the original flight characteristics are "wear from usage during play and the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrapes".

(Note you can't sand a disc for the purpose of altering the flight characteristics; you can only sand to smooth molding imperfections or scrapes. If that happens to alter the flight characteristics, OK. Sand more, or for any other reason, illegal.)

[Cgkdisc]

Originally Posted by Steve West

The rules say: "such that its original flight characteristics have been altered". It does not offer safe harbor of: no more than if it had been played with.

If a disc has been laser-etched such that it flies exactly like a beat-in disc, that would be an illegal disc because of the method of modification.

The only legal ways to alter the original flight characteristics are "wear from usage during play and the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrapes".

(Note you can't sand a disc for the purpose of altering the flight characteristics; you can only sand to smooth molding imperfections or scrapes. If that happens to alter the flight characteristics, OK. Sand more, or for any other reason, illegal.)

That's my unofficial take on it and the reasons behind it. As you're well aware, the rules are about fair play and can't always articulate the gray areas nor want to do so.

[Thr33putt]

"A disc that is questioned by another player or an Official is illegal unless it is subsequently approved by the Director."

Basically if you were playing a tournament and someone wanted to be a jerk about it it would be illegal until the td said otherwise. I think the rule is that you are allowed to do "moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrapes".

[Steve West]

Originally Posted by Thr33putt

"A disc that is questioned by another player or an Official is illegal unless it is subsequently approved by the Director."

Basically if you were playing a tournament and someone wanted to be a jerk about it it would be illegal until the td said otherwise. I think the rule is that you are allowed to do "moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrapes".

You said "until". The rule says "unless." Big difference.

"Unless" means that if you know your disc is legal, you can keep using it and get the TD's blessing at the end of the round.

[araytx]

Originally Posted by Thr33putt

"A disc that is questioned by another player or an Official is illegal unless it is subsequently approved by the Director."

Basically if you were playing a tournament and someone wanted to be a jerk about it it would be illegal until the td said otherwise. I think the rule is that you are allowed to do "moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrapes".

Correct. Exactly what Steve said above.

And the rule prevents other players from gaming you during the round (for example, claiming your favorite driver is illegal even if they knew it was). If you know the rules and you know your disc is legal, you can tell the player claiming it's not, "well I know it is. I'm gonna keep playing with it and after the round we can see the TD about a ruling." And if the TD agrees with you, you'll be perfectly ok.

[BillFleming]

Originally Posted by araytx

Correct. Exactly what Steve said above.

And the rule prevents other players from gaming you during the round (for example, claiming your favorite driver is illegal even if they knew it was). If you know the rules and you know your disc is legal, you can tell the player claiming it's not, "well I know it is. I'm gonna keep playing with it and after the round we can see the TD about a ruling." And if the TD agrees with you, you'll be perfectly ok.

And you have to hope the TD doesn't rule it illegal. By the rules (below), line D is actually two statements. First, if the disc is questioned...then it is illegal. Once that part is in effect, then it stays illegal...unless it is approved by the TD. That is the important thing to understand...the disc IS illegal, unless it is approved by the TD. Why does it say 'unless' instead of 'until'? Because the TD could have approved it before the round began. In the case of a laser etched disc...the player should show it to the TD before even playing and get a ruling then.

If the player has not gotten the disc pre-approved and continues to use the disc after the legality is questioned...and the TD, subsequently (i.e. after the disc being questioned) rules it IS illegal, the player would be disqualified. My advice: if a player questions your disc, either immediately call over the TD for a ruling, or play a different disc.

813.01 Illegal Disc
D. A disc that is questioned by another player or an Official is illegal unless it is subsequently approved by the Director.
E. A player who throws an illegal disc during play receives two penalty throws. A player who repeatedly throws an illegal disc may be subject to disqualification in accordance with Section 3.03 of the PDGA Competition Manual.

[araytx]

Originally Posted by BillFleming

And you have to hope the TD doesn't rule it illegal. By the rules (below), line D is actually two statements. First, if the disc is questioned...then it is illegal. Once that part is in effect, then it stays illegal...unless it is approved by the TD. That is the important thing to understand...the disc IS illegal, unless it is approved by the TD. Why does it say 'unless' instead of 'until'? Because the TD could have approved it before the round began. In the case of a laser etched disc...the player should show it to the TD before even playing and get a ruling then.

If the player has not gotten the disc pre-approved and continues to use the disc after the legality is questioned...and the TD, subsequently (i.e. after the disc being questioned) rules it IS illegal, the player would be disqualified. My advice: if a player questions your disc, either immediately call over the TD for a ruling, or play a different disc.

813.01 Illegal Disc
D. A disc that is questioned by another player or an Official is illegal unless it is subsequently approved by the Director.
E. A player who throws an illegal disc during play receives two penalty throws. A player who repeatedly throws an illegal disc may be subject to disqualification in accordance with Section 3.03 of the PDGA Competition Manual.

Bill, your scenario is only applicable with the player and the disc in question not being 100% certain. As I stated in my example the key word "unless" prevents players from gaming you about your disc when you KNOW (absolutely know) it's legal. In fact the wording, specifically "unless it is subsequently approved...," clearly indicates approval after the fact or after the challenge is part of the situation here. In that case I wouldn't have to call the TD over immediately, I'd just keep on playing with my disc. I might call over the TD when it became convenient or when my group was close to HQ, but if not, I'd just wait until after the round. Because I'm 100% sure my disc is legal.

[BillFleming]

Originally Posted by araytx

Bill, your scenario is only applicable with the player and the disc in question not being 100% certain. As I stated in my example the key word "unless" prevents players from gaming you about your disc when you KNOW (absolutely know) it's legal. In fact the wording, specifically "unless it is subsequently approved...," clearly indicates approval after the fact or after the challenge is part of the situation here. In that case I wouldn't have to call the TD over immediately, I'd just keep on playing with my disc. I might call over the TD when it became convenient or when my group was close to HQ, but if not, I'd just wait until after the round. Because I'm 100% sure my disc is legal.

But, it is YOU that is 100% sure. That doesn't make it so. The TD has the decision. That's my point. The player may be 100% sure their disc is illegal, so they wait until after the round to have the TD confirm it - and the TD doesn't agree. Now the player is disqualified.

[araytx]

Originally Posted by BillFleming

But, it is YOU that is 100% sure. That doesn't make it so. The TD has the decision. That's my point. The player may be 100% sure their disc is illegal, so they wait until after the round to have the TD confirm it - and the TD doesn't agree. Now the player is disqualified.

And my point is that if I am wrong, that's on me. A disc's legality isn't a subjective decision. It's very concrete. If I KNOW (like 'know that I know that I know') that my disc meets the tech standards, the TD can't say it's "illegal because Johnny on my card says so." He must find something that violated the tech standards.

Plus my argument about preventing gaming is still there and unquestioned. Think about it. If I played with an illegal disc (defined as one that does not meet tech standards) then I deserve to be DQ'ed. What I don't deserve is using a legal disc and having my opponent try to "game me" from continuing to use it by simply calling it illegal.

So no just because I say my disc is legal doesn't make it so. But the tech standards in the book do make it so. The "unless" and "subsequently" are written into that rule with purpose.

[DiscFifty]

Originally Posted by uncle pennybags

I know if I search I can find an answer for this, but what would the difference be between laser etching and deliberate beating-in of discs? That's still modification.

I watched a video from DD where the conclusion was beating up your disc prematurely (in any fashion) to make it fly more like a beat in disc is 100% legal.