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Old 07-22-2021, 02:50 PM
Waddball Waddball is offline
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Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
It sounds like you are saying that keeping your eyes on the disc is bad advice?
How does a beginner know what they are doing with the disc and arm angles if they never pay attention to it?
Is it not possible that as players progress that they can then take their eyes off?
There's a curious defensiveness emerging here. I'm not saying it's bad advice. I'm saying most pros don't do it (by some definition of "it" which I thought was fairly obvious but apparently isn't). And I'm asking: why is that?

My suspicion, and I think you remarked earlier that you were unsure about the answer, is that it has something to do with the oblique sling (not overturning backward, among other things). But I don't know, and I'm fairly new to the sport, hence this thread. My personal, limited experience is that a full look back has both advantages (better control over the pull, zero neck/head tension) and disadvantages (less obvious sling, perhaps lower accuracy).

So, is keeping eyes on the disc an instructive/useful practice for beginners, but as you progress you should start reducing the full look back to something more sideways (sort of a corner of the eye thing as proprioception improves)?
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  #52  
Old 07-22-2021, 03:38 PM
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There's a curious defensiveness emerging here. I'm not saying it's bad advice. I'm saying most pros don't do it (by some definition of "it" which I thought was fairly obvious but apparently isn't). And I'm asking: why is that?

My suspicion, and I think you remarked earlier that you were unsure about the answer, is that it has something to do with the oblique sling (not overturning backward, among other things). But I don't know, and I'm fairly new to the sport, hence this thread. My personal, limited experience is that a full look back has both advantages (better control over the pull, zero neck/head tension) and disadvantages (less obvious sling, perhaps lower accuracy).

So, is keeping eyes on the disc an instructive/useful practice for beginners, but as you progress you should start reducing the full look back to something more sideways (sort of a corner of the eye thing as proprioception improves)?
I'm in the McBeth camp of working on distance first which means loosening everything up, and then dialing things in as you progress.

Simon said he has made it a focus this year to keep his eyes more on the target and he is also not trying to throw as far due to injury.

Ricky said he has made it a focus this year to look back at his disc at the top of the backswing to make sure his angle is correct.







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  #53  
Old 07-22-2021, 04:19 PM
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azplaya25 azplaya25 is offline
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Originally Posted by SocraDeez View Post
Anthon's form appears a lot because of how odd it is. For sure heed the wisdom of crowds; but also don't forget the instructive value of outliers. What can examining Anthon's unconventional technique reveal about the underlying power mechanisms of the disc golf throw? In other words, the motions that make Anthon's throw look idiosyncratic are window dressing or fluff or all the stuff that's not peanuts or M&M's in trail mix, right?

So, the real point I'm making above is that analyzing Anthon's form helps to demonstrate what's really important in the "loose arm pendulum" vs. "work around the disc" discussion (which, in my opinion, is no different than the "keep head straight/ down" vs "watch the disc" discussion): it's shoulder orientation.

Stand up and let your arms hang from your shoulders with your hands resting flat against the outside (away from COG) of each leg. Use your shoulders to rotate your thumb outward from your COG so that your palms are facing forward. Or, do your best double thumbs up Fonzi impression because you actually didn't clog your in-laws toilet as you had feared & it went down on the second flush. Focus on the tension/ feeling in the shoulder. This is external shoulder rotation. This is the predominant shoulder feeling when trying to "work around the disc".

Now, rotate your thumbs inward toward your legs/ butt, so that your palms are facing outward away from you. Focus on the loose, forward feeling of the shoulders in this position. To me, it feels like the very beginning of bending down to tie my shoes or touch my toes. This is internal shoulder rotation. This is the predominant shoulder feeling of the "loose arm pendulum".

If you're after easy distance in the disc golf throw, your throwing shoulder should roll from a relative internal rotation position to a relative external rotation position, as described by the exercises above. What Anthon's form teaches is that the internal rotation shoulder position only needs to happen briefly and at the very top of the backswing. This is actually synced to when he picks his thumb off the disc & probably one of the reasons he does it - at that exact moment his throwing shoulder transitions from the external rotation orientation to the internal rotation orientation. Watch again.



So you might try combining your "work around the disc" throw shoulder feeling with your "loose arm" throw shoulder feeling, but only enter the "loose arm" throw shoulder feeling (relative internal rotation) very briefly at the top of the backswing (so as you're shifting pressure/ weight to the front). That's what Anthon accomplishes, & he sequences it with his floating finger. It might be useful to imagine someone grabbing the other end of your disc (aka doorframe drill!), but they only do it at the very top of the backswing. Or do some swings without a disc since gripping something seems to complicate this motion (another reason why Anthon might lift the thumb). Without a disc, it's easy to feel the arm acceleration added with this shoulder orientation sequence.

It's also important not to forget the symmetry of the disc golf throw - if the lead throwing shoulder should go from relative internal rotation at the top of the backswing to relative external rotation during the swing, then the trailing off shoulder must go from relative external rotation at the top of the backswing to relative internal rotation during the swing. Think SW22 swim move or Paul McBeth off-arm pump etc. - how do those motions position the trail shoulder? With the thumb rotated toward the leg/butt and the palm outward away from the COG/ target just like the internal shoulder rotation exercise described above.

Here's one more outlier that might offer some wisdom - Linus Astrom on the right below. He brings his rear arm over his head. Try it. Feel how it forces your trail shoulder to go from the relative external rotation position to the relative internal rotation position (overhand throws like in baseball or football make use of this same shoulder orientation sequence from external to internal to produce power).


As someone who’s been studying Anthon’s form for a while, this is gold.

I think this rolling from external to internet rotation is what his whole swing is built around, even down to his putt. A lot of people think he putts on anhyzer which is why he tilts the disc, but I think he’s just externally rotating his shoulder. His putt comes out flat, not on anhyzer. Seems like his whole putt is powered by that same rolling his shoulder from external to internal rotation you described in his swing.

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Old 07-22-2021, 06:24 PM
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This thread might be turning somewhat.

https://www.sapiens.org/biology/evol...nIPCnumDSt2EMM
"The researchers found that humans are so good at throwing because our body stores energy in our shoulders. Scientists refer to this banked power, which puts a strain on our bodies, as “elastic energy storage.”

“We stretch the ligaments and tendons that are in the shoulder much like a slingshot and recover a lot of energy out of that to produce these really fast throws,” Roach says. Such slingshot throwing, he argues, was likely made possible by three anatomical changes that occurred during human evolution: expansion of the waist, lowering and repositioning of the shoulders, and the emergence of low humeral torsion (the twisting of the upper arm bone that enhances elastic energy)."

When you drop forward in door frame drill your shoulder loads into external rotation.

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Old 07-22-2021, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by SocraDeez View Post
Re: Head Down vs. The Tuck vs. Watch the Disc

"Watch the disc" is the best counsel here, but there's a reason why the advice to keep the head down/ looking forward perpendicular to the target line is so popular & persevering: it makes you do some shoulder stuff right.

Now, fire walk with me for a moment here. I'm not sure what the proper kinesiology terms are for shoulder positions, so you'll have to pretend to perform some familiar actions to follow along with me on the body feelings (disclaimer: they might not be the best action analogies as they are off the top of my head). In the backswing, the lead throwing shoulder should feel somewhat "shrugged" while the back shoulder should feel "pinned" back. Then, during the forward swing, the shoulders trade orientations & the back shoulder becomes "shrugged" while the lead shoulder becomes "pinned".

Let me elaborate on the good shoulder feelings (from the perspective of the backswing; just reverse for the forward swing positions): The lead shoulder should lag behind your COG (as SW22 is fond of saying) & your lead lat. To do this, it needs to be in the "shrugged" orientation. Pretend to tie your shoes. Focus on the shoulder feeling. It feels loose and forward. The lead shoulder should feel like this in the backswing.

The back shoulder should feel like the somewhat opposite of this - "pinned" & back. Pretend to open a door/ turn a doorknob. (If your back shoulder is your left shoulder, you will need to turn the knob counter-clockwise in this imaginary exercise; for your right shoulder to feel like this, you would turn the knob clockwise). Focus on the shoulder feeling. There's some tension/ it feels flexed/ like it's trying to rotate outward from your COG. The back shoulder should feel like this in the backswing.

You probably don't perform a lot of actions that position your shoulders in opposite orientations like this. I'd say the shoulders usually mirror one another in this regard. For me, for example, my left shoulder feels flexed outward/ "pinned" / back / etc. (just like the right) when I go to open a door with my right hand even though the left shoulder is not much involved in the action it seems.

Here is the critical point, in my opinion, on how the head down / tuck / etc. swing thought positions you - if you keep your head pointed perpendicular to the target while you rotate your shoulders back and forward, the shoulders must perform this opposite orientation & trading places dance, which they are not used to performing. If you are watching your disc, it is totally possible to, say, have both shoulders flexed or "pinned" improperly for the entirety of the swing (trust me! I've done this; it breaks the lead lat to lead shoulder kinetic chain & oozes power in a bad way).

Grab the doorknob and twist clockwise with your right shoulder & maintain that shoulder feeling; now try to rotate your right shoulder beneath your chin/ across your COG without moving your head. It's impossible. So, if you keep the head oriented straight ahead, your lead shoulder will be forced to be in the shoe-tie position (not the doorknob turn position) in order to rotate away from the target past your head. Get it?

In summary: ideally, you want to watch your disc (watch! not ogle like a fat kid sizing up a Choco Taco salesman on a hot summer day) during your swing, but the trick is to also have your shoulders do the good shoulder things that keeping-your-head-perpendicular-to-the-target-line helps them do.

If anybody has pictures, better analogies, proper kinesiology-ten-dollar words, please serve 'em up.
So this is SW22 doing exactly what you are describing, right? Tie your shoe internal rotation backswing to external rotation.

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Old 07-23-2021, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
It sounds like you are saying that keeping your eyes on the disc is bad advice?
How does a beginner know what they are doing with the disc and arm angles if they never pay attention to it?
Is it not possible that as players progress that they can then take their eyes off?
Ricky Wysocki was just quoted in the above video saying he peeks at his disc angle during his peak reach back to make sure its on the right line.
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Old 07-23-2021, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
This thread might be turning somewhat.
This thread's always been great, man! I especially liked the "No True Scotsman"* point made above. Ideas must be challenged, you know, so that we can find out if they're any good.

*


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When you drop forward in door frame drill your shoulder loads into external rotation.
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Originally Posted by SocraDeez View Post
It might be useful to imagine someone grabbing the other end of your disc (aka doorframe drill!), but they only do it at the very top of the backswing.
Just want to clarify that the lead shoulder loads into internal rotation at the top of the backswing. Door Frame Drill* absolutely forces you to do this & is probably the best exercise to get the feeling of the load down (not to mention that it's probably the GOAT at-home-don't-need-no-disc exercise for improving your disc golf swing).

*
Note how much dropping forward in Door Frame Drill w/ your head pointed perpendicular to target line resembles the "tuck" that some posters have described in this thread as helping to improve their swing power.

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Originally Posted by azplaya25 View Post
So this is SW22 doing exactly what you are describing, right? Tie your shoe internal rotation backswing to external rotation.

Yeah he's definitely doing it there, but I think this GIF that you posted better demonstrates the range of motion of the shoulder in the correct rotational sequence. Watch how SW22's shoulder holding the golf club goes from the maximal externally rotated position at the start of his movement (which would be top of the actual swing) to the maximal internally rotated position at the end of his movement (which would be top of the backswing). I'm sure the weight + length of the club also helps too if you're trying to get a feel for this.



The tie the shoe + turn the doorknob probably weren't the best motion analogies to use. So let me try once more in more official terminologies for those following along: Standing up with your arms hanging from your shoulders + palms oriented toward the legs, think of the internal position as using your shoulders to rotate the thumbs (or back of the hands) inward toward your COG & the external position as using your shoulders to rotate your thumbs (or front/ palms of the hands) outward from your COG. Here's some pictures I found after a quick Google image search:







In the last image between the fourth & fifth figure that is titled "Acceleration", the throwing shoulder is rolling from external to internal rotation to throw the ball. Keep in mind that this is the opposite for the disc golf throwing shoulder, which should go from internal to external from backswing to swing. The non-throwing shoulder, though, should go from external to internal from backswing to swing. Watch Linus Astrom (on the right below) emphasize this by bringing his back arm above his back shoulder (like throwing a ball overhand!):


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Old 07-24-2021, 07:35 AM
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*
Plus it allows for even more torso rotation if you allow your head to turn past perpendicular!
Absolutely. I see no reason to keep (actually force) my head on a straight plane/head tuck during the backswing. I don't need to see the line once I've committed to it and swung back, at that point I could literally close my eyes and throw. There is no leverage or mechanical advantage to doing so, and if anything, forcing my head to stay planted/tucked in only adds stress and strain to my neck.

Allowing my head to turn with my backswing feels more natural for me, fluid, and puts alot less strain on it. It also allows me to reach back farther too!

Feldberg, who is the big advocate for the head tuck, also had pretty severe and multiple neck injuries during his career and had a spinal fusion. How much that is connected to the head tuck is hard to say, but it is worth noting.

Everyone is different, I've got a short fat neck so your mileage may vary, you do you, but personally I don't see any benefit to the head tuck and only risks associated.

Last edited by Nick Pacific; 07-24-2021 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 07-24-2021, 08:55 AM
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azplaya25 azplaya25 is offline
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Just want to clarify that the lead shoulder loads into internal rotation at the top of the backswing.

Doesn’t this depend on the type of backswing you are doing. Seems if you are internally rotated doing the loose arm pendulum, then the door frame will load you into external rotation. If you are externally rotated in the backswing then the doorframe drill pulls you into internal rotation momentarily before rolling into external rotation during the forward swing
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Old 07-28-2021, 12:29 AM
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Doesn’t this depend on the type of backswing you are doing. Seems if you are internally rotated doing the loose arm pendulum, then the door frame will load you into external rotation. If you are externally rotated in the backswing then the doorframe drill pulls you into internal rotation momentarily before rolling into external rotation during the forward swing
I think that it's gotta be that internally rotated position for the lead shoulder load regardless of backswing type. Mess around with it in the living room without a disc. Try to actively flip that lead shoulder from internal to external in your swing as you bring the arm forward. Then, switch it around: maintain the externally rotated feeling in the backswing and try to flip it to internal when you come forward. You should be able to feel the difference in acceleration produced by each sequence.

Seems like it's strongly related to brace/ ground push and effective swing of the non-braced side of your body.

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Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
Need to drop your right shoulder and let it hang and swing underneath.
Try performing the moving-laterally-beneath-an-object motion & note how your front shoulder wants to drop into the internally rotated position pretty immediately, mirroring the front leg as it swings.

I've been working through some shoulder issues in my swing recently, and this was a new idea to grasp/ something that I did not adequately understand previously: It's not only that your lead shoulder should be positioned as "closed" (or, perpendicular to some degree) relative to the target, but it should also be rotationally closed. This is true for pretty much every lever in your swing: the plant foot rolls like this (picture Heimburg's foot motion rolling from inside to outside), the lower leg, upper leg, hip, obliques + lats, shoulder, upper arm, forearm, wrist, hand etc. I'm sure I forgot or misplaced a couple body parts, but you get the idea.

This is pretty much what I did not understand well (pretty cool article, by the way):
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Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
and the emergence of low humeral torsion (the twisting of the upper arm bone that enhances elastic energy)."
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Originally Posted by azplaya25 View Post
I think this rolling from external to internet rotation is what his whole swing is built around, even down to his putt. A lot of people think he putts on anhyzer which is why he tilts the disc, but I think he’s just externally rotating his shoulder. His putt comes out flat, not on anhyzer. Seems like his whole putt is powered by that same rolling his shoulder from external to internal rotation you described in his swing.

Pretty astute observation in picking it up in Anthon's putting stroke, too. It's certainly curious why he purposefully maintains that externally rotated position (when he's holding the disc on what appears to be an anhyzer angle) so late before the quick load into internal rotation & then back to external when he actually putts the disc. Compare to Ricky Wysocki's putt, in which he has his shoulder internally rotated + loaded for pretty much the entire backswing.
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