#11  
Old 09-04-2020, 08:53 AM
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BogeyNoMore BogeyNoMore is offline
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Maybe I need to watch the video again, to pay attention to Uli's demeanor, facial expression.
I wonder if Uli was just jerking Jerm's chain.
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  #12  
Old 09-04-2020, 09:12 AM
Jugular Jugular is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meillo View Post
How can anything be a directional aid if it's right where you throw? For aiding your direction it needs to be away from you. To me it doesn't make sense to talk about directional aid in this case.

Putting the towel down is legal. That's easy. It shouldn't matter if you step on the towel or not. As it is right where you are, it cannot aid your direction.

The mini has a special purpose in disc golf, i.e. marking your lie. The questions are if you can use it in any other ways (as an auxilliary item) or if you could mark something on an already established lie (the teebox). I don't know the reasons well enough, but would rather say no.

Interesting is if I could place or not brush away loose leaves and twigs on the teepad but don't step on them.
See my example directly above. If I know that I get the best results if I throw 7 degrees to the right of my intended final lie with a certain disc, having something show me what 7 degrees away looks like I can line that up using markings on a mini and therefore adjust my runup and aim to hit that angle. Surely that meets the definition of a directional aid?
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Old 09-04-2020, 01:27 PM
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rocthecourse rocthecourse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meillo View Post
How can anything be a directional aid if it's right where you throw? For aiding your direction it needs to be away from you. To me it doesn't make sense to talk about directional aid in this case.
To play devil's advocate-

If you have a long teepad you could place a mini at the front of the teepad and throw from the back of the teepad and it would be directional.

Even on shorter pads the mini would give you a direction for your run up which would have some affect on the direction of your throw. The rules don't say how much of a help the directional aid needs to be, just that the use of one is illegal.

What if someone what's to draw lines on the teepad with sidewalk chalk, would that be legal too?
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Old 09-04-2020, 03:47 PM
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And if I put a 3mx2m towel with lines and angles or mini-sized dots on the teepad?

The rules say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by https://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/80301
A player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course, with the following exceptions:

A player may move casual obstacles that are partially or completely on the lie or in the stance area, regardless of whether they extend in front of or behind the lie. A casual obstacle is any item or collection of loose debris (such as stones, leaves, twigs, or unconnected branches), or any item as designated by the Director.
As it says ``move'' and not ``remove'', I can rearrange the leaves, sand, stones on the teepad ...

The important aspect is the intend to use it as direction aid, which is not allowed. Big Jerm did not want to use it as direction aid but as a foot placement aid to avoid the dip at the front. That's much like towels for grip aid. Both could be seen as measures for health safety. There's a thin line between these. What the intend is and what it actually aids are also difficult to find out. A marker, as a small sized object is much more useful to aid directions than a large sized object as a towel. But a small long towel in the direction of play helps for direction as well ... It depends much on the situation, I'd say.


I agree with you now that the location ``right where you throw'' makes no difference. It directs your run-up, no matter if you cannot aim with it in the moment of the throw.

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Old 09-04-2020, 06:50 PM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robdeforge View Post
I would think it's pretty clear that "directional aid" means aiding in the direction of a thrown disc, i.e. what lisa fajkus did. placing a mini on the teepad is not aiding in that way.

would be curious to see if the rules committee feels differently
"A) the mini is being used as a directional aid to assist the player as to where they want to throw (illegal)."

If someone places a mini on the tee pad to assist where (or where not) to place their feet it certainly has the derivative effect of helping with their aim, intentional or not. So I don't see how this can not be a rules violation.
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Old 09-04-2020, 08:21 PM
txmxer txmxer is offline
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Beyond the tee box, you are required to mark your lie in a certain manner.

On the tee box you can throw from the right side, left side, front, back, etc.

If a mini on the fairway is not a directional aid and there are rules about foot placement associated with where the lie marker sits, then why would it be illegal on the tee pad as long as the player follows the rules related to the lie marker? If Jerm places his mini on the right side of the box and throws from the left, then it’s a foot fault. As long as his plant foot is compliant with lie marker rules, seems a non-issue tome. Basically, the player has confined the throw to additional rules that normally do not apply on the tee box.

OTOH, the violation in the FPO sounds like the player put the bag some distance in front of the lie creating a visual cue for direction.
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Old 09-05-2020, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txmxer View Post
If a mini on the fairway is not a directional aid and there are rules about foot placement associated with where the lie marker sits, then why would it be illegal on the tee pad as long as the player follows the rules related to the lie marker? If Jerm places his mini on the right side of the box and throws from the left, then it’s a foot fault. As long as his plant foot is compliant with lie marker rules, seems a non-issue tome. Basically, the player has confined the throw to additional rules that normally do not apply on the tee box.
Without further additions to the rules I find it difficult to interprete it this way. It is a generally sensible way the rules could take but it would need mentioning in the rules. Currently there teebox is a lie that cannot be changed by the player. Also it has different rules: You must not have contact outside of the teebox when you throw, whereas you can have contact outside of your lie on any other throws. If you place the marker on the edge of the teebox would you then be able to place one foot behind the marker and one besides the teebox? I don't think this interpretation path makes the rules simpler. A marker on the teebox (if allowed at all) should not be able to change the lie in any way. Thus if it would be allowed to place a marker on the teebox you could place your foot anywhere, without the marker. However, no markers on the teebox probably is the better way to go. Would be nice to clarify that in the rules/FAQs.
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Old 09-05-2020, 04:21 AM
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They should just fix that obnoxious rut on the front of the tee pad. Level that bitch out. To me what is shocking is the lack of unity in tee pad equity on these courses they play. He's complaining about the giant rut where you'd plant. And he's not wrong either.

Jerm also memtions at a different point, that he doesn't need a run up, it just looks cool. If anything, I think tee pads/areas need more work than the baskets. The teeing surfaces are all over the damn place. Block/brick pads look nice but they're not.

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Old 09-05-2020, 12:22 PM
txmxer txmxer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meillo View Post
Without further additions to the rules I find it difficult to interprete it this way. It is a generally sensible way the rules could take but it would need mentioning in the rules. Currently there teebox is a lie that cannot be changed by the player. Also it has different rules: You must not have contact outside of the teebox when you throw, whereas you can have contact outside of your lie on any other throws. If you place the marker on the edge of the teebox would you then be able to place one foot behind the marker and one besides the teebox? I don't think this interpretation path makes the rules simpler. A marker on the teebox (if allowed at all) should not be able to change the lie in any way. Thus if it would be allowed to place a marker on the teebox you could place your foot anywhere, without the marker. However, no markers on the teebox probably is the better way to go. Would be nice to clarify that in the rules/FAQs.

Any where else, your lie is an 11” circle. How can the tee pad be your lie? They are two completely different scenarios.

I suppose if you define it as the limit of where you can place your feet on a throw ?

And we know that pros are often allowed to throw from the sides. Big run ups from off the tee pad, etc.

Ultimately the rules don’t truly address the issue. I don’t believe that a mini placed directly in front of your plant foot offers any directional aid which would make the issue moot IMO.

WOLF has good point that the tee pad should be fixed in general, but particularly for a pro event. But then there is economic reality.

Sports are generally considered fair as long as everyone plays by the same rules.
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  #20  
Old 09-05-2020, 10:12 PM
txmxer txmxer is offline
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I had a related thought—frequently players are allowed to throw from the side of the tee box. This is marked by flags or other means.

If a player were to place a mini in the dirt along the line of the flags to prevent a foot fault, would this be a violation?

I suspect most will say yes, but I think this whole thread is a gray area and not well addressed in the rule book.
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