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View Poll Results: Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open?
A par 2 where 38% of throws are errors, and 1% of throws are hero throws. 6 25.00%
A par 3 where 24% of throws are errors, and 33% of throws are hero throws. 16 66.67%
A par 4 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 23% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes. 0 0%
A par 6 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 62% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1841  
Old 09-26-2017, 05:08 PM
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NegaSnapples NegaSnapples is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cefire View Post
I see someone has already attempted to explain the issue to you (along with the still implicit conflation of par and scoring).

See this post for the exact same critique: https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...postcount=1760
If every pro shoots a 2 on a hole, it's a par 2. Not a par 3. It doesn't matter what it is labeled as. You and your lover Doof don't seem to understand this concept. Doof's response to me was pedantic. I hardly want to go back and read through it again. The little I did read through does nothing to prove that I'm conflating anything. This conversation is really exhaustingly boring at this point.
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  #1842  
Old 09-26-2017, 05:17 PM
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No need for personal insults, I think we'll have to drop the issue. For the record, the distinction between these concepts is nuanced to be certain.
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  #1843  
Old 09-26-2017, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NegaSnapples View Post
If every pro shoots a 2 on a hole, it's a par 2. Not a par 3. It doesn't matter what it is labeled as. You and your lover Doof don't seem to understand this concept. Doof's response to me was pedantic. I hardly want to go back and read through it again. The little I did read through does nothing to prove that I'm conflating anything. This conversation is really exhaustingly boring at this point.
Lover? Does this discussion make you mad or something?

There is no par 2. Assuming there is, it's not because of what anyone shot on the hole. It's because of the design(poor) of it.

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  #1844  
Old 09-26-2017, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by PMantle View Post
Lover? Does this discussion make you mad or something?

There is no par 2. Assuming there is, it's not because of what anyone shot on the hole. It's because of the design(poor) of it.
Probably uncalled for admittedly. He had referenced two of Doof's posts and seemed to be ignoring mine while still responding to mine. A comment in bad taste on my part.

Now as to what you said. The definition of par is what an expert player is expected to shoot on a hole. If an expert is expected to shoot a 2, would that not make it a par 2?
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  #1845  
Old 09-26-2017, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by NegaSnapples View Post
The definition of par is what an expert player is expected to shoot on a hole. If an expert is expected to shoot a 2, would that not make it a par 2?
You're leaving out part of the definition, and I think that's been pointed out to you before. As a practical matter, I don't see people designing courses with holes short enough to be a par 2 under the guidelines.
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  #1846  
Old 09-26-2017, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PMantle View Post
You're leaving out part of the definition, and I think that's been pointed out to you before. As a practical matter, I don't see people designing courses with holes short enough to be a par 2 under the guidelines.
Yeah, I'm leaving out the arbitrary "close range" part of the definition. It's rather redundant as well. Since close range isn't defined, it just becomes whatever an expert player would take to hole out in 2.

I'm pretty sure I've seen majors this year with par 3's shorter than the gold level PDGA guidelines. I'm not a course expert so I sort of forget. I feel like DeLa had like a 210 ft hole with not many trees?
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  #1847  
Old 09-26-2017, 07:58 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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NegaSnapples, calm down. What you said makes sense. Leave it at that.

This seems like a good time to point out that some holes could be par 2 even for FPO. (And that over-parring is not just an MPO problem.)

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  #1848  
Old 09-26-2017, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NegaSnapples View Post
Yeah, I'm leaving out the arbitrary "close range" part of the definition. It's rather redundant as well. Since close range isn't defined, it just becomes whatever an expert player would take to hole out in 2.

I'm pretty sure I've seen majors this year with par 3's shorter than the gold level PDGA guidelines. I'm not a course expert so I sort of forget. I feel like DeLa had like a 210 ft hole with not many trees?
No holes at DeLa were par 2.
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  #1849  
Old 09-26-2017, 08:02 PM
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What is the definition for "errorless par"? (Sorry, you've probably been asked this a million times)
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  #1850  
Old 09-26-2017, 08:15 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by cefire View Post
What is the definition for "errorless par"? (Sorry, you've probably been asked this a million times)
That's my method of turning the definition into a formula. See here or here.

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