#51  
Old 05-14-2018, 09:17 AM
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Noill Noill is offline
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  #52  
Old 05-14-2018, 09:31 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
The language of the rule seems to suggest those are merely possible examples of when a provisional might be used to save time, it does not specify they are exceptions or the only possible exceptions.

Should read like this if that is what was intended to be an exhausted list of exemptions:
Can I take it from your shift to making the argument that the rule does not cover the situation, that you agree that using a logical extension is only allowed when there is a point not covered by the rules?
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  #53  
Old 05-14-2018, 10:07 AM
DG_player DG_player is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philstine View Post
Yes, there is: you simply, for whatever misbegotten reason, simply fail to recognize or admit it:

It's clear that you're either trolling or, for whatever reason, you're being intentionally obtuse.

It is probable that you will have the last word in this particular discussion, but unless it's to acknowledge that your assertions to date have been mistaken, you will still be wrong.
I'm not sure why you think I'm trolling. If you read back, you will see I agree with you that your interpretation is probably the correct way to play it. I just recognized that Sidewinder has a point because the rules are unnecessarily vague. This is just one case where the lack of clarity creates argument.

What if I declare a provisional, and locate a lost disc but it is out-of-bounds. Am I required to use my provisional at this point, or may I discard the provisional and play from the last point in bounds? I don't know, the rules don't say. Either qualify as a "correct" lie under the rules.

What if my card incorrectly identifies my disc as being lost or OB and I proceed from the provisional, and later come across my disc in bounds? Which is the disc in play?

What if I come up short on my provisional due to an early tree hit, can I continue playing it until I reach the search area for the original throw?

This is just a few off the top of my head, I'm sure there's more out there. I'm willing to bet people could come up with what they believe the correct ruling would be in each case, and likely come to different conclusions citing the same rules.

My primary point is, why isn't it clear and concise, not whether what you say is the correct way to play it (which I do in fact agree is the correct way to play it)? If you read the USGA rules it is very specific on how you play a provisional, at what point you are required to play from it, and at what point your are required to abandon it. If it so clear and obvious as you insist, with the simply phrase "the group shall determine the 'correct' lie", why have they bothered to spell out the specific circumstances instead of just using similar language?
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  #54  
Old 05-14-2018, 10:33 AM
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krupicka krupicka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
I'm not sure why you think I'm trolling. If you read back, you will see I agree with you that your interpretation is probably the correct way to play it. I just recognized that Sidewinder has a point because the rules are unnecessarily vague. This is just one case where the lack of clarity creates argument.

What if I declare a provisional, and locate a lost disc but it is out-of-bounds. Am I required to use my provisional at this point, or may I discard the provisional and play from the last point in bounds? I don't know, the rules don't say. Either qualify as a "correct" lie under the rules.
When you take a provisional, you declare which circumstance you are taking it for: "I am throwing a provisional in the event the disc is lost". Or "I am throwing a provision in the event the disc is lost or OB."

Quote:
What if my card incorrectly identifies my disc as being lost or OB and I proceed from the provisional, and later come across my disc in bounds? Which is the disc in play?
This isn't really a provisional rule question. It is just a lost disc rule. Once a disc is declared lost it is lost even if found later.
Quote:

What if I come up short on my provisional due to an early tree hit, can I continue playing it until I reach the search area for the original throw?
Answered earlier: a provisional is the beginning of a sequence of throws.

Quote:

This is just a few off the top of my head, I'm sure there's more out there. I'm willing to bet people could come up with what they believe the correct ruling would be in each case, and likely come to different conclusions citing the same rules.
There is no ambiguity in any of those scenarios and the rulings would be consistent.
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  #55  
Old 05-14-2018, 10:35 AM
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Noill Noill is offline
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So, if you don't say OB and it is OB, you have to play that and find the last inbounds point?
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  #56  
Old 05-14-2018, 11:09 AM
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chevis chevis is offline
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...and can you throw a provisional for each possible outcome: this one is if it is lost, this one is if it's ob, this one's for possible missed mando.

i have to agree that there is no provisional for "in case the new lie isn't where i want" (abandoned throw)
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  #57  
Old 05-14-2018, 11:11 AM
DG_player DG_player is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
When you take a provisional, you declare which circumstance you are taking it for: "I am throwing a provisional in the event the disc is lost". Or "I am throwing a provision in the event the disc is lost or OB."
There is no requirement in the rules to explicitly declare the reason for taking a provisional, what if I just declare "I'm throwing a provisional"?

Quote:
This isn't really a provisional rule question. It is just a lost disc rule. Once a disc is declared lost it is lost even if found later.
What if it was misidentified as OB, not lost?

Quote:
Answered earlier: a provisional is the beginning of a sequence of throws.
Once again, where is this in the rules? It's clear under B.2. for a ruling objection it's a sequence, but under B.1. it doesn't say anything. It just says "The thrower then continues play from whichever of the two throws is deemed by the group or an Official to have resulted in the correct lie."
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  #58  
Old 05-14-2018, 11:47 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
There is no requirement in the rules to explicitly declare the reason for taking a provisional, what if I just declare "I'm throwing a provisional"?
You do not have to declare the explicit reason in terms of OB vs lost vs missed mando. You only have to say you're throwing a provisional. It is then assumed that the provisional is being thrown in case the original throw is OB or lost or it missed a mando because those are the only three options in which you are allowed to throw a provisional to "save time".

Quote:
Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
What if it was misidentified as OB, not lost?
You can't call it OB unless you find the disc. You need reasonable evidence that the disc is OB to call it OB rather than lost. If you are throwing a provisional because the disc's status is in question while the group is at the tee, then you clearly have no evidence that it is OB until you find the disc. If you had the evidence, such as seeing the disc enter the OB area, you wouldn't have to throw a provisional. You'd know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
Once again, where is this in the rules? It's clear under B.2. for a ruling objection it's a sequence, but under B.1. it doesn't say anything. It just says "The thrower then continues play from whichever of the two throws is deemed by the group or an Official to have resulted in the correct lie."
And why can't the same thing (B.2) apply again for the provisional throw? You still don't know which one is the correct lie since you haven't arrived at/found the original throw. So you throw another provisional from the position of the first provisional, and so on until you reach the point at which you can determine the status of the original throw. There's nothing in the rule that says you can only have one provisional throw in play at a time.

Consider the situation in which you throw your tee shot and are unsure of its status. It may be lost or OB so you throw a provisional to save walking back. What happens if the provisional throw heads in the same direction as the first throw and its status is also in doubt? You throw a second provisional in case the first one is lost or OB as well. If you can do that, there's no reason the same idea can't be applied to continuing the sequence from the result of the first provisional if that position is arrived at first.
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  #59  
Old 05-14-2018, 12:47 PM
_MTL_ _MTL_ is offline
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This is quite simple.

If you re-threw from the tee, even if you had said "provisional" its automatically an abandoned throw and you would be forced to play the re-throw with penalty despite the outcome of either shot.

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  #60  
Old 05-14-2018, 01:07 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _MTL_ View Post
This is quite simple.

If you re-threw from the tee, even if you had said "provisional" its automatically an abandoned throw and you would be forced to play the re-throw with penalty despite the outcome of either shot.
What is this in response to? Because if a provisional is declared and allowed by the group, there is no circumstance at all in which it could be considered an abandoned throw, let alone being "automatically" considered such.

If the thrower believes his original throw may be lost (or OB), he's perfectly entitled to throw a provisional. If the original is found in bounds, the provisional is discarded. If it is not found (or is OB), the player takes a penalty and continues play from the provisional as his re-throw. If the player finds the original throw and then wishes to abandon it, he would have to go back to the tee and re-throw again.
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