#61  
Old 05-14-2018, 02:00 PM
1978 1978 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Charlotte, Nc
Years Playing: 11.1
Courses Played: 286
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 3,890
Niced 181 Times in 74 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
Ah, having read what you wrote a bit better, to clarify - no you can't throw a provisional on the basis that you will later, on finding you first throw, CHOOSE whether to abandon it or not. You can't be in a position of choosing which lie you prefer, the original throw OR the provisional as this can lead to abuse.

If you wanted to retain the right to choose whether to use your original throws lie, and possibly not abandon it, then you would need to spend the time going down the hill and looking for it.

Provisionals are for situations where something HAS already happened (the disc is/is not OB) but you just don't KNOW which yet. Not for choices.
You can throw a provisional banking on not finding it.
You can disregard the provisional if you find it.
You cannot take the rethrow (provisional) if you do not satisfy the basis of the provisional.

Once the disc was found. You had 3 options; 2 legal.
1. Call unplayable lie, walk back to last lie and throw with stroke penalty.
2. Throw from found disc lie.
3. Do what you did, take provisional penalty plus misplay penalty and risk disqualification for purposely not following rules.
Sponsored Links
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 05-14-2018, 02:21 PM
sidewinder22's Avatar
sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Creeping Creek DGC
Years Playing: 13.1
Courses Played: 219
Posts: 14,903
Niced 2,675 Times in 1,667 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by philstine View Post
The Rules and Competition Manual are consistent in explicitly stating when a list of conditions that pertain to a rule is exemplary rather than exhaustive. Examples of this include:

Given the consistent practice of specifically identifying when listed conditions are exemplary rather than exhaustive, unless there are rules containing a list of conditions to which the rule applies that do not specifically state that the list is exemplary, the presumption must be that the listed conditions are exhaustive.
That is not consistent language formatting for what you are arguing. It appears that the misplay and courtesy lists are exhaustive as they are formatted, for example
a. or,
b. or,
c...etc,

while the others format examples such as the following (towels or knee pads), without a list format.

This rule specifies the following exceptions, why doesn't the provisional?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 803.01 Moving Obstacles
B. A player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course, with the following exceptions:
- 1. A player may move casual obstacles that are on or behind the lie. A casual obstacle is any item or collection of loose debris (such as stones, leaves, twigs, or unconnected branches), or any item as designated by the Director.
- 2. A player may request that other people move themselves or their belongings.
- 3. A player may restore course equipment to its proper working order, including the removal of obstacles.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 05-14-2018, 02:39 PM
sidewinder22's Avatar
sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Creeping Creek DGC
Years Playing: 13.1
Courses Played: 219
Posts: 14,903
Niced 2,675 Times in 1,667 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
You do not have to declare the explicit reason in terms of OB vs lost vs missed mando. You only have to say you're throwing a provisional. It is then assumed that the provisional is being thrown in case the original throw is OB or lost or it missed a mando because those are the only three options in which you are allowed to throw a provisional to "save time".


You can't call it OB unless you find the disc. You need reasonable evidence that the disc is OB to call it OB rather than lost. If you are throwing a provisional because the disc's status is in question while the group is at the tee, then you clearly have no evidence that it is OB until you find the disc. If you had the evidence, such as seeing the disc enter the OB area, you wouldn't have to throw a provisional. You'd know.



And why can't the same thing (B.2) apply again for the provisional throw? You still don't know which one is the correct lie since you haven't arrived at/found the original throw. So you throw another provisional from the position of the first provisional, and so on until you reach the point at which you can determine the status of the original throw. There's nothing in the rule that says you can only have one provisional throw in play at a time.

Consider the situation in which you throw your tee shot and are unsure of its status. It may be lost or OB so you throw a provisional to save walking back. What happens if the provisional throw heads in the same direction as the first throw and its status is also in doubt? You throw a second provisional in case the first one is lost or OB as well. If you can do that, there's no reason the same idea can't be applied to continuing the sequence from the result of the first provisional if that position is arrived at first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
What is this in response to? Because if a provisional is declared and allowed by the group, there is no circumstance at all in which it could be considered an abandoned throw, let alone being "automatically" considered such.

If the thrower believes his original throw may be lost (or OB), he's perfectly entitled to throw a provisional. If the original is found in bounds, the provisional is discarded. If it is not found (or is OB), the player takes a penalty and continues play from the provisional as his re-throw. If the player finds the original throw and then wishes to abandon it, he would have to go back to the tee and re-throw again.
Wait, so if the player doesn't declare the reason, but intends to throw the provisional for only a lost disc, but not if OB, but ends up found OB, then what? The group forces the vague provisional as the correct lie instead of the player playing last IB as the player intended it?
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 05-14-2018, 02:44 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Years Playing: 21.7
Courses Played: 150
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 7,647
Niced 3,416 Times in 1,433 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
Wait, so if the player doesn't declare the reason, but intends to throw the provisional for only a lost disc, but not if OB, but ends up found OB, then what? The group forces the vague provisional as the correct lie instead of the player playing last IB as the player intended it?
Provisional covers them all at once. If the player doesn't want to re-throw from his previous lie if the disc is OB, then he shouldn't throw the provisional.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 05-14-2018, 02:52 PM
_MTL_ _MTL_ is offline
Flippy Flopper
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC
Years Playing: 26.3
Courses Played: 135
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 3,004
Niced 928 Times in 411 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post

If the thrower believes his original throw may be lost (or OB), he's perfectly entitled to throw a provisional. If the original is found in bounds, the provisional is discarded. If it is not found (or is OB), the player takes a penalty and continues play from the provisional as his re-throw. If the player finds the original throw and then wishes to abandon it, he would have to go back to the tee and re-throw again.
OB is a different discussion. As is lost disc.

The OP was referring to abandoned throw, which is a different conversation.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 05-14-2018, 03:00 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Years Playing: 21.7
Courses Played: 150
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 7,647
Niced 3,416 Times in 1,433 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by _MTL_ View Post
OB is a different discussion. As is lost disc.

The OP was referring to abandoned throw, which is a different conversation.
Yes, the OP made a re-throw pursuant to an abandoned throw. His error is referring to it as a provisional at all. It's not a provisional, it is simply a re-throw.

The fifty some odd posts between the OP and your response to it strayed far from the original post, primarily because of the use of the word provisional. So it was kind of hard to draw a line from the OP to your post without considering all of that, especially since you didn't quote the OP.

Not a big deal, just a bit confusing.

Niced: (2)
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 05-14-2018, 03:02 PM
_MTL_ _MTL_ is offline
Flippy Flopper
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC
Years Playing: 26.3
Courses Played: 135
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 3,004
Niced 928 Times in 411 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Yes, the OP made a re-throw pursuant to an abandoned throw. His error is referring to it as a provisional at all. It's not a provisional, it is simply a re-throw.

The fifty some odd posts between the OP and your response to it strayed far from the original post, primarily because of the use of the word provisional. So it was kind of hard to draw a line from the OP to your post without considering all of that, especially since you didn't quote the OP.

Not a big deal, just a bit confusing.
yeah, my bad.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 05-14-2018, 03:30 PM
sidewinder22's Avatar
sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Creeping Creek DGC
Years Playing: 13.1
Courses Played: 219
Posts: 14,903
Niced 2,675 Times in 1,667 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Provisional covers them all at once. If the player doesn't want to re-throw from his previous lie if the disc is OB, then he shouldn't throw the provisional.
So much for saving time.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 05-14-2018, 03:35 PM
sidewinder22's Avatar
sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Creeping Creek DGC
Years Playing: 13.1
Courses Played: 219
Posts: 14,903
Niced 2,675 Times in 1,667 Posts
Default

Reply With Quote
 

  #70  
Old 05-14-2018, 04:15 PM
teemkey's Avatar
teemkey teemkey is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Hillsboro, OR
Courses Played: 39
Posts: 2,515
Niced 488 Times in 222 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
So much for saving time.
I agree that 809.02 is all about saving time. There is also a real-time control because the group has to agree.

And, if you think about it, the use of provisionals to mediate a rules disagreement is also about saving time since the alternative is to wait for a tournament official.

I do think the presence of a drop zone should eliminate the rethrow and thus the need for B.01 provisionals when the drop zone is forward of the rethrow lie. But that's not in the rules now ... is it?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Limit on Provisional Throws? teemkey Rules Questions & Discussion 16 10-20-2015 04:36 PM
50+ Throws, All $12 or less! Brodysseus The Marketplace 43 04-09-2015 12:26 AM
Second throws LmidgitD General Disc Golf Chat 38 06-17-2011 06:03 PM
Different Throws lokirising Technique & Strategy 19 12-06-2010 12:49 AM
Bad throws begat bad throws problem BrotherDave Technique & Strategy 22 06-13-2010 08:37 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.