#31  
Old 04-14-2021, 10:28 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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Good thoughts and explanations on the holes I picked on based on the stats. Thank you for putting that effort in. Like has been said already, having a ratings range rather than division would be helpful for scoring analysis. "MP50" could include really old geezers who just want to play with peers (nothing wrong with that at all - that sort of describes me), but in my mind, I envision that group to be in the ratings range of 935-1000. If the ratings of the MPO & MP50 groups were more in the 900-950 range, my comments/expectations would be modified.

I had not really thought of low ceilings, or a hole that rewards the overhand route (#12) being contributors to higher than expected scoring. Some people hate when designers force a certain throw (a roller or a overhand, for instance)....I love it (even though those are weaknesses in my game) since they test/reward real disc golf skills.

And one last thought - you are very wise to leave stuff to cut down after you see how things play. It is certainly easier to cut/clear than plant/grow.
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  #32  
Old 04-14-2021, 11:35 PM
oldmandiscer oldmandiscer is offline
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Originally Posted by Doofenshmirtz View Post
This is what I have been thinking about the most after the tournament - whether the holes are fair and whether the stats back that up. I'm generally happy with the spread on most holes except 5 where all the MPO scoring spread was basically non-existant (the hole I am thinking about shortening). As to birdies, one hole really stood out and that is hole 7. Out of 54 plays by MPO, MP50 (there were no MP40 players) and MA, there were only 3 birdies, all from the MA players. There were 24 pars and 23 bogies. It averaged 3.64 throws with a MAD of 0.77. Here's a pic of the hole:



It's 350ft exactly. Everything to the left of the near, top edge of the ditch is OB. There is OB behind the basket as well. It played as the third most difficult hole on the course. It is fairly easy to avoid OB on this hole if played conservatively. All of the OB throws were to the left, with no one overthrowing and reaching the OB behind the basket. No one missed the mando. I'm okay with the dearth of birdies and several players I talked to thought this was the best hole on the course. But there's no overlooking the fact that it gave up only about 6% birdies when I did not think it would play so difficult. I do however think that the number of bogies is an encouraging sign that the hole is getting players to be aggressive and go for the birdie. The two mistakes are either trying to flex a disc that is too overstable and fades early or throwing something too understable that turns, burns and cut rolls OB.

There are two holes that are more difficult, one a par 4 that only gave up 1 birdie out of 54 plays (MPO, MP50 and MA) and played at .7 throws above par. It is probably just too difficult and may require a bit of clearing. On the other hand, it had a good spread of scores (MAD 0.71) with half of the plays scoring par and no one really bitching about the difficulty.
Personally I would take out the OB long. The woods should be penalty enough so not really necessary and if someone ends up deep right they will have an obstructed difficult look or pitch out. 6% birdies isn't too bad, it's a difficult hole but looks mostly fair.
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  #33  
Old 04-14-2021, 11:41 PM
txmxer txmxer is offline
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The pics you shared look really nice. The first pic you shared seems like the MANDO isn't necessary as others have said.

It's picturesque.
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  #34  
Old 04-15-2021, 08:10 AM
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Doofenshmirtz Doofenshmirtz is offline
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Originally Posted by oldmandiscer View Post
Personally I would take out the OB long. The woods should be penalty enough so not really necessary and if someone ends up deep right they will have an obstructed difficult look or pitch out. 6% birdies isn't too bad, it's a difficult hole but looks mostly fair.
There is a creek back there with a pretty good flow. The basket sits near the point of a triangle bounded by two creeks that converge just behind the basket. OB lets a player play from a drop zone instead of re-teeing for a lost disc.
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  #35  
Old 04-15-2021, 08:45 AM
oldmandiscer oldmandiscer is offline
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Originally Posted by Doofenshmirtz View Post
There is a creek back there with a pretty good flow. The basket sits near the point of a triangle bounded by two creeks that converge just behind the basket. OB lets a player play from a drop zone instead of re-teeing for a lost disc.
Oh I thought it was woods. I hate when TD's make woods OB.
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  #36  
Old 04-15-2021, 12:07 PM
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Three Putt Three Putt is offline
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Really I generally see designs less concerned with safety for events than I see for day to day play. Event players should know better than to bomb an occupied tee pad, so TD's take advantage of that and use tournament tees/placements that would be too dangerous for use by casuals. Generally when I see mandos added for events, they are added to force a shot and add difficulty to the hole. If I saw that mando on a that hole for an event and it wasn't usually there, I'd automatically assume that was there to take away the RHBH hyzer route and force me to go straight at the pin to bring that OB into play, not as a safety measure.
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Old 04-15-2021, 12:10 PM
Billipo Billipo is offline
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"Technical course" typically is a euphemism for too many trees. Looking at the stats, it is seems that the course is short and putting a premium on accuracy, eliminating the need for distance. In my experience, what separates the Open players from better AMs is typically distance. The course may put uncomfortable constraints on the Open players. Buzz and a putter only bag?

Maybe you are trying to cater to the wrong audience. You take away one of the Open player's tools and they might not be as interested in playing this particular course. Someone else said, courses aren't always for every skill level. Can't force it.

Since I have not seen or played the course, I could be wrong.

Course still could be suitable for tournament play. Maybe more for AMs. My suggestion is to do same data analysis for Advanced and Intermediate players and adjust course for best course for this level of play. Maximizing these players experience.
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  #38  
Old 04-15-2021, 02:03 PM
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Doofenshmirtz Doofenshmirtz is offline
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Event players should know better than to bomb an occupied tee pad . . .
While I agree whole-heartedly, that they should, many of the disc golfers in my area have no clue that they shouldn't throw directly at another tee pad if they think that is a better route to the basket (think better for not losing their disc) and I have watched them do it over and over again. Some will take that beat-in, DX Wraith that is such a meat hook for them and throw it, full power, directly into the wind on a short hole and marvel at it as it "unexpectedly" flips and heads directly at the kiddies in the playground, or another tee box or nearby houses.

Other will throw a hyzer at all costs and cannot imagine that it could possibly be true that they should be confined to throwing a right-turning shot. Those players will also ignore the fact that a tee pad is within reach to the right.

This Mando is for the Rec and Intermediate level players during tournaments and minis. I think that any decent player is going to throw out over the creek anyway. As to casual play, there are never more than two to three groups of players on that course at any one time, and typically not that many, so I wasn't really concerned about ignoring mandos during casual play. But, play may pick up in coming years, so I built a pretty big backstop to protect that in-range tee box anyway.

Now those are my reasons. I do not insist that they are correct and I understand your point. I gave a lot of consideration to both this mando and one other, but decided to go with this one. FWIW, I do plan on adding trees and large shrubs to this course this fall so that I can eliminate most, if not all, mandos. There are several other mandos that I put in after two hurricanes and the city's equipment operator destroyed large parts of the more wooded area of the course and all of those were attempts to maintain the difficulty level I was trying for in the original design, before all the damage.
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  #39  
Old 04-15-2021, 04:24 PM
txmxer txmxer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doofenshmirtz View Post

Other will throw a hyzer at all costs and cannot imagine that it could possibly be true that they should be confined to throwing a right-turning shot. Those players will also ignore the fact that a tee pad is within reach to the right.
but, but, but, they only turn left in NASCAR. Why should we have to turn right?
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  #40  
Old 04-15-2021, 04:57 PM
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Definitely needs to get pics of all the holes and maybe even a course map up so that some of the experts here can give you a full and informed critique. The pics so far seem like you have designed a fun and challenging course with not a lot of land to do it with.

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