#51  
Old 12-10-2018, 06:58 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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His punitive definition of "arrive at your lie"
I don't think his definition is punitive - I think it is exactly what the rule says and means. Though, how people apply it in real life may well appear punitive. From reading these boards, and my limited experience, it doesn't seem that the excessive time rule is called often. But that doesn't change what the rule says or means.

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or what can happen before arriving at your lie has occured. I don't see anything in the rules that says exactly what that means.

I think it means exactly what it says. The plain reading of 'to arrive' is 'reach a destination'. It simply means you have reasonable time to travel (from where you threw to where your disc landed). It is one of the four criteria to determine if excessive time has been taken. Choosing disc & line isn't a component part of travelling/arriving.

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Only non-golfing argumentativeness, sadism, or competitive advantage has ever resulted in not having time outside of the 30 seconds to choose a line/disc.
I can quite believe that people have had these motives when choosing to call excessive time in real life. But that doesn't change what the rule says or means.
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  #52  
Old 12-10-2018, 07:15 PM
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I don't think his definition is punitive - I think it is exactly what the rule says and means. Though, how people apply it in real life may well appear punitive. From reading these boards, and my limited experience, it doesn't seem that the excessive time rule is called often. But that doesn't change what the rule says or means.




I think it means exactly what it says. The plain reading of 'to arrive' is 'reach a destination'. It simply means you have reasonable time to travel (from where you threw to where your disc landed). It is one of the four criteria to determine if excessive time has been taken. Choosing disc & line isn't a component part of travelling/arriving.



I can quite believe that people have had these motives when choosing to call excessive time in real life. But that doesn't change what the rule says or means.
I mostly agree with you, except the arriving at your lie part (doesn't it say addressing in the rules?). IMO this is the most ambiguous part of the rule, and has been for awhile. Can I stand five feet behind my lie for as long as I want, and 30 seconds only starts when I get in legal throwing position? If at the last second I decide I want to mark my lie instead of using the disc on the ground as a marker, does my time reset? In reality I don't think this ambiguity has much negative impact, but it is annoying for us who like to see things clearly defined whenever possible.

Also, I agree with both Joakim and JC- if a player is standing with one foot behind their lie and takes longer than 30 seconds to throw they are technically in violation of the rules, but you never see it called when a player has a tough lie, at least not in all the coverage I've watched.

Also, does it really matter what the thirty seconds is for? I mean, if I want to use 20 seconds to fart and blow a snot rocket and the last 10 to check my line and throw that's my decision, right?
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  #53  
Old 12-10-2018, 07:40 PM
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I mostly agree with you, except the arriving at your lie part (doesn't it say addressing in the rules?). IMO this is the most ambiguous part of the rule, and has been for awhile. Can I stand five feet behind my lie for as long as I want, and 30 seconds only starts when I get in legal throwing position? If at the last second I decide I want to mark my lie instead of using the disc on the ground as a marker, does my time reset? In reality I don't think this ambiguity has much negative impact, but it is annoying for us who like to see things clearly defined whenever possible.
I don't think PDGA has "addressing" anywhere. I believe that's just PGA, and you have to have a club to do it.

No, you definitely can't do anything but attempt to maintain pace with the group ahead of you. And no, I do not think standing there doing nothing is reasonable at all.

And perhaps the fact I need to maintain pace necessitates that I do not throw hastily and take time with more strokes.

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Also, I agree with both Joakim and JC- if a player is standing with one foot behind their lie and takes longer than 30 seconds to throw they are technically in violation of the rules, but you never see it called when a player has a tough lie, at least not in all the coverage I've watched.
That fact means the rule should either be changed or interpreted in my fashion.
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Old 12-10-2018, 07:52 PM
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I don't think PDGA has "addressing" anywhere. I believe that's just PGA, and you have to have a club to do it.

No, you definitely can't do anything but attempt to maintain pace with the group ahead of you. And no, I do not think standing there doing nothing is reasonable at all.

And perhaps the fact I need to maintain pace necessitates that I do not throw hastily and take time with more strokes.


That fact means the rule should either be changed or interpreted in my fashion.
You're right about addressing, sorry for being lazy and incorrect.

How would you propose changing the rule? In specific wording. And can you clarify your interpretation? I understand you don't think disc and line selection are part of the 30 seconds, but I don't quite get your overall interpretation.

And sorry for calling you JC, I meant Dan. I agree with you that 30 seconds is never called for a tough lie outside of nefarious intentions.
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Old 12-10-2018, 08:07 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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I mostly agree with you, except the arriving at your lie part (doesn't it say addressing in the rules?).
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802.03 Excessive Time

A. A player has taken excessive time if they are present and have not thrown within 30 seconds after:
1. The previous player has thrown; and,
2. They have had a reasonable amount of time to arrive at and determine the lie; and,
3. They are next in the throwing order; and,
4. The playing area is clear and free of distractions.
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IMO this is the most ambiguous part of the rule, and has been for awhile.
Personally, part 2 has always seemed pretty unambiguous and straightforward - you get reasonable time to physically get to your disc (and work out what the lie is ie OB or not etc). I have never read it any other way. If you take time out of travelling to your disc to do other things... well that's not part of 'arriving at your disc'. This is the only reading of part 2 that makes sense, if you can do other things as part of 'arriving' then part 2 stops being any kind of restriction at all.

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Can I stand five feet behind my lie for as long as I want, and 30 seconds only starts when I get in legal throwing position?
No - because you've had a 'reasonable amount of time' to achieve your task of getting there. Doesn't matter whether you have actually arrived, just whether you have had time to. The rule doesn't say '30s from when you HAVE arrived'


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If at the last second I decide I want to mark my lie instead of using the disc on the ground as a marker, does my time reset?
Again no - because you've had a 'reasonable amount of time' to achieve your task of determining the lie. Again, doesn't matter whether you actually have.

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Old 12-10-2018, 08:20 PM
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You're right about addressing, sorry for being lazy and incorrect.

How would you propose changing the rule? In specific wording. And can you clarify your interpretation? I understand you don't think disc and line selection are part of the 30 seconds, but I don't quite get your overall interpretation.

And sorry for calling you JC, I meant Dan. I agree with you that 30 seconds is never called for a tough lie outside of nefarious intentions.
I'd just add a definition for "arrive at your lie". Something like "presence at the lie having prepared to throw".

You could also go the other way with a definition. Like "mere presence in the area of the disc", but why would you change the game against the observable will of the players?

I feel 30 seconds is a good rule for solely limiting the pre-shot "waggle".
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Old 12-10-2018, 08:21 PM
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Personally, part 2 has always seemed pretty unambiguous and straightforward - you get reasonable time to physically get to your disc (and work out what the lie is ie OB or not etc). I have never read it any other way. If you take time out of travelling to your disc to do other things... well that's not part of 'arriving at your disc'. This is the only reading of part 2 that makes sense, if you can do other things as part of 'arriving' then part 2 stops being any kind of restriction at all.



No - because you've had a 'reasonable amount of time' to achieve your task of getting there. Doesn't matter whether you have actually arrived, just whether you have had time to. The rule doesn't say '30s from when you HAVE arrived'




Again no - because you've had a 'reasonable amount of time' to achieve your task of determining the lie. Again, doesn't matter whether you actually have.
Since when is walking the only reasonable thing to do for a human? It's unreasonable to take a bathroom break? Or to tie my shoe?
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Old 12-10-2018, 09:02 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Since when is walking the only reasonable thing to do for a human? It's unreasonable to take a bathroom break? Or to tie my shoe?
Disc selection and shot selection are whole specific activities onto themselves. People can take a*lot of time just on those two tasks. If you think the rules should be changed to include those activities as part of the pre 30-second allowance that*is one thing.*But it is*not reasonable to suggest that the rule as currently written implies that they are, in any way shape or form.*

Including shot and disc selection as part of 'arriving' renders the excessive time rule fairly pointless as these two activities are big potential time wastes,*and you are giving people free rein to take as long as they want over them. If you feel 30s is not enough time for disc and shot selection and*pre throw waggle,*then better to increase the time allowance.

Talk of tying shoelaces etc feels like nitpicking while ignoring my broader points.

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Old 12-10-2018, 09:28 PM
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Personally, part 2 has always seemed pretty unambiguous and straightforward - you get reasonable time to physically get to your disc (and work out what the lie is ie OB or not etc). I have never read it any other way. If you take time out of travelling to your disc to do other things... well that's not part of 'arriving at your disc'. This is the only reading of part 2 that makes sense, if you can do other things as part of 'arriving' then part 2 stops being any kind of restriction at all.



No - because you've had a 'reasonable amount of time' to achieve your task of getting there. Doesn't matter whether you have actually arrived, just whether you have had time to. The rule doesn't say '30s from when you HAVE arrived'




Again no - because you've had a 'reasonable amount of time' to achieve your task of determining the lie. Again, doesn't matter whether you actually have.
I don't think it's completely unambiguous how long is reasonable, just the word reasonable itself invites a lot of ambiguity, but similar to a distraction I think it's clear what is an unreasonable amount of time. Other than that I agree with your entire post.
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  #60  
Old 12-10-2018, 09:43 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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I don't think it's completely unambiguous how long is reasonable, just the word reasonable itself invites a lot of ambiguity, but similar to a distraction I think it's clear what is an unreasonable amount of time. Other than that I agree with your entire post.
Ah, yes. I wasn't referring to 'reasonable' as unambiguous. I was referring to 'time to arrive at the lie' as unambiguously meaning 'travel time'.

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