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Old 08-17-2019, 04:35 PM
Smigles Smigles is offline
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Default Does marking change the lie?

Couldnt find anything on this in the rules or i dont have the imagination to extrapolate from whats written there. Anyway.

Question from Emerson Keith in worlds final, hole 1.

Does marking change the lie? Can it take you from outside the circle to inside?
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Old 08-17-2019, 05:09 PM
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BogeyNoMore BogeyNoMore is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smigles View Post
Couldnt find anything on this in the rules or i dont have the imagination to extrapolate from whats written there. Anyway.

Question from Emerson Keith in worlds final, hole 1.

Does marking change the lie? Can it take you from outside the circle to inside?
That's a damned good question. Given the discussion in the Apologies If Answered - Newish Rule About "Lie" and "Flipping Disc" thread, it seems that's possible.

Say your disc comes to rest straddling the circle, such that the leading edge is several inches inside the circle, but the trailing edge is lies just outside the circle. If you leave the thrown disc as your lie, you must take a stance behind it, so you'd clearly be outside of the circle.

Assuming you placed a mini in front of the thrown disc, there might be enough room to place your leading foot behind the mini, but clearly inside the circle (especially if your foot is pointing perpendicular to the LOP).

In that case, it would seem the use of a mini (or lack of) makes the difference between being in or out of the circle. Technically, using a mini always changes your lie, precisely by the diameter of the disc you're picking up. To what degree that 7-8 inches (or perhaps even more for Condors and other large diameter molds) really changes things depends on the situation. In the above scenario, it determines in the circle vs. out of the circle. But I'd argue the player could most likely still take a legal stance within the prescribed rectangle to be just outside the circle if the truly wanted to jump putt.



IMHO, marking your should not be able to change your lie. If the rules say you can mark your lie directly adjacent to the edge closest to the basket, then you should be able to stand on your disc as a legal stance for your next throw provided no part of your foot or any other support point is closer to the basket than any part of the disc marking your lie. Then, marking with a mini wouldn't change your lie. But the rulebook doesn't see it my way.


Or maybe I'm mistaken and will learn something.

Last edited by BogeyNoMore; 08-17-2019 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 08-17-2019, 09:40 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smigles View Post
Couldnt find anything on this in the rules or i dont have the imagination to extrapolate from whats written there. Anyway.

Question from Emerson Keith in worlds final, hole 1.

Does marking change the lie? Can it take you from outside the circle to inside?
Yes and yes. It's a quirk.

An interesting side note: because of this, and because partners in some doubles games must play from the same lie, the team needs to choose whether to mark with a mini or not and both must throw from there.

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Old 08-18-2019, 12:09 AM
Casey 1988 Casey 1988 is offline
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This is why you train so you do not have to make putts until 3-4 feet past the 10 meter range needing a jump putt or however long your jump putt is. This way you do not need to fall forward into the 10 meter zone making the putt questionable whether it was legal or not. I do not need a jump putt anymore. However past 35-40 feet wind dependent as to where I start with approach disc as well as how I am putting with my putter, I am using my approach disc being a putter glide slow midrange and with my putting style putting it in. Past 35-40 feet to 60-70 feet I am doing more a true approach/short midrange shot with the putter glide slow midrange.

Last edited by Casey 1988; 08-18-2019 at 12:11 AM.
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Old 08-18-2019, 12:27 AM
ToddL ToddL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smigles View Post
Couldnt find anything on this in the rules or i dont have the imagination to extrapolate from whats written there. Anyway.

Question from Emerson Keith in worlds final, hole 1.

Does marking change the lie? Can it take you from outside the circle to inside?
100%, unequivocally YES.

There is a chain of three rules that leads to this conclusion.

806.01.A: Any throw made from within 10 meters of the target, as measured from the rear of the marker disc to the base of the target, is a putt.
802.05.D: The marker disc, or marker, is the disc used to mark the lie according to 802.06.
802.06.A: The position of a thrown disc on the in-bounds playing surface marks the lie.
802.06.B: Alternatively, the player may mark the lie by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface, touching the front of the thrown disc on the line of play. A mini marker disc is a small disc, not used in play, that complies with PDGA Technical Standards for mini marker discs.

To break it down:
A putt is measured from the Marker Disc to the Target. Okay, so what defines the Marker Disc? The marker disc is either the thrown disc or the mini marker disc. That literally means that the status of putt vs non-putt can change whether you use your disc or the mini.

However, it's also worth noting that the 10m painted circles are not necessarily official or perfect. The card should use their best judgment about whether to trust the line or to walk it off and make their own conclusion about the location of the disc.

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Old 08-18-2019, 04:39 AM
Smigles Smigles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey 1988 View Post
This way you do not need to fall forward into the 10 meter zone making the putt questionable whether it was legal or not.
Your entire post was just an old guy rambling about how he is so much better than the rest, but this particular part of BS sticks out.

There is nothing questionable about what you are describing. Jump putting isnt about where you land after the putt. This is real high level nonsense.

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Old 08-18-2019, 06:35 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Originally Posted by ToddL View Post
..However, it's also worth noting that the 10m painted circles are not necessarily official or perfect...
This brings up some interesting thoughts.

The rule book doesn't reference the 10m circle being physically marked at all, it just defines the distance. Whereas for Mandos it describes the procedure for both a physically marked line and for an imaginary one. And for OB, the rule book assumes that there will always be a physical line of some kind.

And the rulebook tells us how to treat physically marked lines. For OB the line itself is OB. For Mandos the line is 'safe' as the disc has missed the mando only if "it completely crosses a mandatory line".

So questions:
1. Can a physically marked putting circle ever be considered 'official'? As the rulebook doesn't give any official status to that marked line, nor does it define how to handle the line itself.

2. How big is the potential for problems if a marked (but always unofficial) line is incorrect?

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Old 08-18-2019, 08:11 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
This brings up some interesting thoughts.

The rule book doesn't reference the 10m circle being physically marked at all, it just defines the distance. Whereas for Mandos it describes the procedure for both a physically marked line and for an imaginary one. And for OB, the rule book assumes that there will always be a physical line of some kind.

And the rulebook tells us how to treat physically marked lines. For OB the line itself is OB. For Mandos the line is 'safe' as the disc has missed the mando only if "it completely crosses a mandatory line".

So questions:
1. Can a physically marked putting circle ever be considered 'official'? As the rulebook doesn't give any official status to that marked line, nor does it define how to handle the line itself.

2. How big is the potential for problems if a marked (but always unofficial) line is incorrect?

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Good questions. Why not start a thread?
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Old 08-18-2019, 08:57 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Good questions. Why not start a thread?
Done.
Anyone interested to, can follow up there.

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