#101  
Old 02-15-2019, 02:09 PM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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I have to admit, I'm a bit confused. I had always thought I read that most of Jussie's discs were not his design, but rather blended parts of other Innova molds. This top with that bottom kind of thing. That suggests that they aren't his discs and Innova is making them. But rather that it is Innova, and they let Jussie start a company?

Does one of you disc guys know?
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  #102  
Old 02-15-2019, 03:16 PM
Lazerface Lazerface is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkgreen View Post
Really? The two premium trilogy plastics that I’ve thrown seemed just as durable or maybe slightly even more durable than Innova premium plastics. I haven’t thrown a lot of trilogy, and I’m not that big of a fan (most of my bag is Innova) but the premium trilogy seems to really be able to take a beating. I guess you have had more exposure to all of the different brand plastics so you a probably better positioned to comment than I, but I’m still surprised.
Now overall quality when it comes to disc flight, Innova is much better IMO, with the caveat that you know what run you are looking for.
I sort of agree with both of you. The plastic quality in terms of taking a beating is top notch for sure. What I have noticed (career Destroyer thrower) is that the high speed distance drivers I've tried from LAT (BallistaPro/Giant) both had extremely fast cycle times. They went from pretty stable to pretty damn flippy within maybe a month of playing. I was playing with a sponsored pro the other day and when he was shopping sponsors over the off season he told me that he had a Trilogy offer, but too many of his pro peers he talked to told him that the discs "beat up to fast". That was my experience exactly, but with distance drivers. I have an old school pre emac Truth and Westside Sampo that have held their integrity wonderfully for a very long time. It may be more of the tooling on distance drivers than that plastic. To each their own, but I have certainly heard the "they beat up too quick" trope from a lot of high arm speed guys in reference to Trilogy plastic. That does not necessarily reference durability but flight integrity, and maybe that can be independent? I don't know. Given this pro gets his disc at no cost it was not about that, but he said as much as he throws a disc he was worried about having to cycle out drivers way too frequently and that could hurt consistency. Take it as you will, he chose another company. Plenty of elite talent throwing Trilogy stuff.

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  #103  
Old 02-15-2019, 03:32 PM
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JTacoma03 JTacoma03 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
I have to admit, I'm a bit confused. I had always thought I read that most of Jussie's discs were not his design, but rather blended parts of other Innova molds. This top with that bottom kind of thing. That suggests that they aren't his discs and Innova is making them. But rather that it is Innova, and they let Jussie start a company?

Does one of you disc guys know?
The problem is that "blended parts of other Innova molds" was only ever meant to be a rule-of-thumb. People noticed that there was "Innova Champion" on the bottom of the disc, and that they looked similar, so that was the exaplanation. Proper context is that in the early days of DM, Innova has so many mold parts that either didn't stay in production, or never made production, etc.

"Oh so we like the way your Leopard flies, we also need an understable fairway, do you have any other ideas for understable fairways?"

...you know those kind of discussions. The problem with the overused rule-of-thumb is it unintentionally takes agency away from Discmania, as if they don't have a say, or implies that they're not part of the design process.

SO - when DM contracts molds from Innova, they have tons of available experiments as well as proven molds that could help kickstart the collaboration. It was never a situation where Innova just makes things and shoves it down their throats saying, "Sell this." Discmania (Now Discmania: Originals), goes to Innova with an idea, and they get some concepts back.

So honestly this new thing is just like the old thing, just adding two more manufacturing partners. Don't worry about who those manufacturers are, it's not important to the overall (which is where all the fanboys are getting hung up - on things that don't matter).

So, DM staff collaborates with the engineers/designers from the manufacturing partners to come up with a new mold, then the partner molds 'em up, sends a handful of testers to DM staff, and they decide to sell, tweak, or scrap and try a different idea to meet the goal for the collaboration.


Now...take what I'm saying with a grain of salt too, it's been a few years since I've been in the back room with the Discmania folks, so I'm speaking just from my experience and from what I know of how they think.


Last edited by JTacoma03; 02-15-2019 at 03:35 PM.
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  #104  
Old 02-15-2019, 03:36 PM
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BuzzzChief BuzzzChief is offline
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Isn’t “Discmania” just a registered trademark of Innova Europe? The relationship of Innova Europe to the original US-based Innova is not clear to me.
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  #105  
Old 02-15-2019, 03:46 PM
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JTacoma03 JTacoma03 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuzzzChief View Post
Isn’t “Discmania” just a registered trademark of Innova Europe? The relationship of Innova Europe to the original US-based Innova is not clear to me.
Innova Europe is Jussi's first disc golf company. It's a distribution outfit fully owned by Jussi and his partners, and it holds (I believe, but not 100% on this detail) an exclusive contract to wholesale Innova Discs in Europe. This was back, I believe, when he was still an Innova-sponsored player. Innova Europe sells to big chains like Budget Sport, as well as pro shops, etc.

The next wrinkle is this:

Discmania is a brand that Jussi created for Europe, that contracted a sort-of white label deal with Innova (see my above post) to produce discs for that brand. Remember this is 00's so before most of the brands and manufacturers you know today even existed. Discmania's popularity grew - Avery, Seppo, Schusterick, among others inked deals with the brand. In 2012 Discmania USA was formed to bring it to the US market.

and we all remember the more recent history with brands forming/changing/etc. in the last 5-6 years so I won't re-hash that.

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  #106  
Old 02-16-2019, 04:28 AM
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Flick Maniac Flick Maniac is offline
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Innova Champion Europe will be Spin18 in the future. Last year turnaround was almost 7 mil, this year theyre aiming for 8. I have no doubts they will hit that with ease.

Source: https://frisbeegolfradat.fi/2019/02/...ikunin-kanssa/

You can googletranslate that if you want

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  #107  
Old 02-16-2019, 06:24 AM
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DiscJunkie DiscJunkie is offline
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I'm not sure why this hasn't been acknowledged, but Chuck got it right back on post #44.
FlickManiac also on Post #21
It's about shipping and distribution, and cost - not branding.
Personally, I think it's brilliant.
He gets distribution into China through Yikun, and he gets discs CHEAP. That's why he's getting Yikun to do his base plastic.
He gets EU distribution through Lat64. Discs molded locally, inside the EU get zero tariffs and cheap distribution.
Folks, it ain't cheap to ship overseas.
I'm sure his deal with Innova stays in place.
This new move allows him to, at a stroke, reduce costs and widen his distribution.
The man is willing to throw the dice. He has demonstrated the willingness to make a bold move, and I think this deal will yield $$ for years to come.
I'd be willing to bet that some other disc mfrs are kicking themselves for not doing something like this.

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Last edited by DiscJunkie; 02-16-2019 at 06:29 AM.
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  #108  
Old 02-16-2019, 08:05 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscJunkie View Post
I'm not sure why this hasn't been acknowledged, but Chuck got it right back on post #44.
FlickManiac also on Post #21
It's about shipping and distribution, and cost - not branding.
Personally, I think it's brilliant.
He gets distribution into China through Yikun, and he gets discs CHEAP. That's why he's getting Yikun to do his base plastic.
He gets EU distribution through Lat64. Discs molded locally, inside the EU get zero tariffs and cheap distribution.
Folks, it ain't cheap to ship overseas.
I'm sure his deal with Innova stays in place.
This new move allows him to, at a stroke, reduce costs and widen his distribution.
The man is willing to throw the dice. He has demonstrated the willingness to make a bold move, and I think this deal will yield $$ for years to come.
I'd be willing to bet that some other disc mfrs are kicking themselves for not doing something like this.
I don't think you're necessarily wrong about expanding distribution, but if it is about not shipping overseas as much, does that mean Evolution is going to be primarily a European brand that will be harder to find in the US? That the Original brand will become more US-centric and not found as much in Europe?

I don't think there will be any cross-pollination between the Discmania brands and their distinct molding partners. Latitude won't be molding DDXs and P2s in Sweden, and Innova won't be molding Links and Instincts in California.

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  #109  
Old 02-16-2019, 09:17 AM
wims wims is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brockness Monster View Post
MVP literally created a new brand, this counteracts brand dilution. If Discmania had created new brands and called them Active and whatever the other is called, that would be different. Axiom is to MVP what Discmania is/was to Innova. Just a company that pays to use their equipment.
I don't think that's true with Axiom. Axiom is just another brand owned by the MVP guys
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  #110  
Old 02-16-2019, 09:18 AM
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Okay...I'm going back to not caring about Discmania...

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