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View Poll Results: Should the PDGA allow opting out of player packs?
Yes 24 48.98%
No 25 51.02%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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  #51  
Old 11-27-2019, 05:56 PM
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I think a good trend is that, with the proliferation of events in many areas, and players to fill them, we can have TDs choosing a variety of formulas for their events, and players can play the ones that best suit them. Hopefully more TDs will experiment with trophy-only and high-payout/no-players-pack and minimal entry and other variations, and we'll all have more choice.
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  #52  
Old 11-27-2019, 06:03 PM
Casey 1988 Casey 1988 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Putt for D'oh View Post
I just dislike the idea that someone can think "I don't want to pay for X part of what [B]I THINK[\B] my entry fee is going toward"

Why just player packs? I don't care to get a payout if I win so I think I should be able to opt out of payouts for a lower entry fee.
I don't think I get benefit from the club hosting the tournament so I want to opt out of the funds that go to the club and pay a lower entry fee.

These money issues continue to blow me away when I compare a what is spent on a weekend at Disc Golf compared to so many other tournaments I've played in other sports. Disc golf continues to be the absolute cheapest competition I regularly participate in and yet has the most number of people complaining about what they get for their money. At least in circles I run in in the various activities.
Actually some Running events are cheaper, the last marathon I did was $75-$80 if you wanted a perk or two extra. I did not but rather bought a paper from the City it was ran in that had the list of every single person who ran the event. That was the Green Bay Cell Com marathon. I did that being runner who has done Marathons before as well as being a huge Green Bay Packers Fan. Yes outside of the actual event I wore my Green Bay Packer hat the whole time. I can now as of 2016 actually say I have Visited Lambu Field.
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  #53  
Old 11-27-2019, 06:36 PM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
...high-payout/no-players-pack...
This is the model I have tried to get away from in the past decade. This is where I noticed players who participated year after year, event after event getting a lower value in return for their entry fees and time.

I would argue that what is quoted is the "Old" way of doing things (At least regionally) and has lost its place in the hierarchy of players preference.


Agreed 100% on the experimenting and choice.

I would love for the PDGA to loosen a few requirements up to allow for players entry fees to go towards lunches/food. IMO, with allowing the TDs more freedom, we can present an event that is worth the entry fee in itself and having a great lunch would go a long way in that regard.

An organized event, enjoyable place to play, opportunity to compete, social atmosphere and we will feed you. No one complains on a full stomach.

Last edited by Chains Bailey; 11-27-2019 at 06:38 PM.
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  #54  
Old 11-27-2019, 06:49 PM
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Golden Tuna Golden Tuna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
Based on discussions with 3 TDs with years of experience I 100% disagree.
ok, let me rephrase...

There is profit to be made from running events - it often comes from sponsorship dollars, membership sales, merchandise sales, and, yes, entry fees. Any profit from our local events go to our Club fund, not the TD.

I list the revenue streams in that order, because that is the priority from a GM%. Sponsorship & Club Membership are close to 100% profit. Merch is about 50%, and entry fees are about 20% (at our Club events) - we also provide CTPs, 50/50, Ace Pool, and course improvements with those funds.

Anyway, the point is, if TDs are looking to make a buck, entry fees are not the way...

The profit earned on our local events goes to the entity running the event - our Club. Our TDs are not compensated, but they probably should be. Dealing with the public is just the worst.

But, back to the player's pack - I appreciate the feedback, but it is (almost) impossible to please 100+/- participants, so just take what you're given, say thank you, and move on. That said, we try to poll people ahead of time to get an idea of what a majority of people want.

...if we had $1 for every person that complained about a players pack - the disc, the color, weight, etc., we'd be independently wealthy and could run wicked events without the bureaucracy.

The greatest gift you can give a TD is not bitching. The 2nd is a thank you.

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  #55  
Old 11-27-2019, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
This is the model I have tried to get away from in the past decade. This is where I noticed players who participated year after year, event after event getting a lower value in return for their entry fees and time.

I would argue that what is quoted is the "Old" way of doing things (At least regionally) and has lost its place in the hierarchy of players preference.
Probably. Though given a choice, my second-favorite would be no players pack/all the entries go to payouts. I really don't like players packs, even the best of them---I feel like I'm being bribed to show up, with my own money. But there's something to be said for every place above the mid-point, and thus every stroke, getting a noticeable reward, which happens with larger payouts---the jump from, say, 6th to 5th is worth something.

My favorite model would be low entry, no players pack, no prize payout, just pay $20 for organized competition, let the TD keep the money (after fixed expenses). It's a lonely wish, it seems. Although I've played in some charity events along these lines.
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  #56  
Old 11-27-2019, 09:34 PM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Probably. Though given a choice, my second-favorite would be no players pack/all the entries go to payouts. I really don't like players packs, even the best of them---I feel like I'm being bribed to show up, with my own money. But there's something to be said for every place above the mid-point, and thus every stroke, getting a noticeable reward, which happens with larger payouts---the jump from, say, 6th to 5th is worth something.

My favorite model would be low entry, no players pack, no prize payout, just pay $20 for organized competition, let the TD keep the money (after fixed expenses). It's a lonely wish, it seems. Although I've played in some charity events along these lines.
Funny you mention being bribed - I have asked AMs what they think of the event structure from time to time (Players packs, Payouts and so on) and have had a few say "It is great, feels like I am getting paid to play."

I used to pay AM divisions at 50% or more and you are right, hearing players ask if they made the cash line while fighting for 9th place is pretty cool and offers more incentive for some to continue battling on the chase cards. I have moved away from the heavy AM payouts at events for the reasons I mentioned before. As you know, it is a tough balancing act. The winds in this region seem to favor the players packs with modest payouts.

I still attempt to do a very good players packs in B and C Tiers with above average trophies and payout for the top 3 of each AM division + other bells and whistles. Close to trophy only, but if funds allow, I just add it to the top 3 AM payouts or pay deeper in the field. I am biased of course, so players who have attended my events would be the objective source.

That top 3 AM divisional payout variance is where I have found some buffer. Helping me budget on the fly if needed (6 dropouts due to weather as an example). I have the option of how heavy or thin the top 3 AM divisional payout is at events end.

As we all have, no matter how well we think we plan, I have been bitten in the ass with this format as well. Promoting the above structure and then having the divisions split into a billion groups suddenly caused the "Top 3" promise to balloon from the usual 12-15 spots to 24+ spots.

We seem to have some threads from the same cloth in our thinking - cool to hear from other like minded TDs.

Fortunately or unfortunately, I have had Biscoe to sew patches in my cloth where needed over the years. < That sounds weird even though it is meant to be endearing or a show of respect.
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  #57  
Old 11-27-2019, 09:57 PM
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These days, the only event I run is low-entry ($30 for 2 days), no players pack, half the entry goes to charity, and the rest goes to a meager payout. It's team play on a good course and, between those two factors, people come, whether they're keen on the finances, or not.
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Old 11-27-2019, 09:58 PM
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Note: PDGA sanctioning doesn't allow the "top 3" payout. For sanctioned events, you have to pay the top half.
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  #59  
Old 11-27-2019, 10:27 PM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Note: PDGA sanctioning doesn't allow the "top 3" payout. For sanctioned events, you have to pay the top half.
I have been operating in a vague area between traditional and trophy only "True Amateur" formats. No complaints or problems at all, but thanks citing that for me - it may be a good idea to declare the events "True Amateur" with added payout in the upcoming year just to be safe.

Admittedly, I created the "Vague" area and plopped myself right in the middle.

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  #60  
Old 11-27-2019, 11:50 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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I've been off this thread for a while, so here goes some thoughts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
So to be clear, for those opposing this idea and who has posted so, are you saying if player packs were sold separately at the event and not part of the registration fee, the majority of players (if not all of them), would buy one?
Absolutely not. In an "ideal world" I (as a TD) wish all Am events were True Amateur (however any person talking defines it), but we are stuck, based primarily on history, with a piece of the model we can't get rid of. It is a unique issue (the dreaded oxymoron "amateur payout" I am speaking of) to disc golf and not other adult amateur sports, that we're just stuck with it to continue to have events. So if we (TDs) are forced to have to utilize amateur "payout", at least the player pack model provides the combined best logistic/fiscal/reasonable option to us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
I get the distinct impression that events in Texas are not cheap.
In the DFW Metroplex area of Texas, and surrounding areas and tournaments in other parts run by those from DFW, that is very true. I've been around long enough here to have seen multiple iterations.

TL/DR is: The most in-demand/popular TDs have found a "sweet spot" of Am entry fee to get the majority of events to sell out about a week ahead of time to give them the best opportunity to handle everything else that goes into a great event day of.

Entire Background:
First let me say they are around $45 & $55 intermediate & advanced for one-day events; around $55-$65 Int/Adv for two-day events. Having played in other places in the country I know this is on the high end for entry fees … if you’re willing to read here goes. Back around 2012 disc golf sanctioned events took off in the DFW area. That was the year that it seemed like there was a tourney every week (in the days before flex starts). So I started counting, and that year from the last week in January through the first week in December there were 44 sanctioned multi-round tournaments in DFW in those 46 weeks. Multiple groups were cropping up holding events, and DFW is large enough to have enough mileage between events on the same day for C-tiers, so it got crazy. Natural occurrence – people began RARELY signing up early, and TDs would get smashed the morning of the events with 30 or 40 people trying to get in to a one-day two-round event that day. Then they tried lowering the entry fees as competition kept coming. That actually made it worse – even fewer signed up early and I recall one time having 63 spots of a 90-person field open when we got there that morning – and it filled. Imagine the logistic nightmares. Ultimately the top TDs, the ones who were really trying to run great events, grow the sport and his brand, as well as stay in business tried doing things to make his events special while slowly creeping the price up trying to find that spot where people would think the event was worthwhile to sign up early online. Once he found that spot, that’s where it has remained.

[As an aside, Steve-o didn’t invent, but he popularized the one-day flex start along the way].

Today in DFW there are easily 50 or 60 sanctioned multi-round and 40 or so flex starts every year now. I know, I know – not typical. But people don’t really have to drive far to play dg here and can make a decision at the very last minute, so they had to do something.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
I, also, believe that this poll will mirror participants who do not know the details of running an event verse those who do - it is very easy to advocate for basically changing anything event related when you do not know what gear you are changing and what it will effect.

Changing that one gear may cause the whole car not to function.
Amen! Can I double nice that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
My pocket. And I don't mean in a "I won't make enough/any money" sense. I mean in a how much am I going to have to front to cover items and how much of that will I have to eat after the fact if there isn't enough interest?

I'm running a tournament. I decide the am player pack is going to be a custom stamped disc, so now I start shopping for those discs. Every manufacturer has a minimum number of discs you have to buy to start an order, typically 50. Let's say I go with Dynamic as my supplier and buy 50 Prime plastic discs. $4.50 a piece plus a $75 set-up fee puts me at $300. Add in shipping, call it $330, and that's the minimum I have to pay to get the discs. So now I need a minimum of 33 players buying that player pack for $10 each just to break even. If I make the player pack voluntary, am I going to get those 33 sales? What do I do with the leftovers that don't sell?

And that's keeping things at a minimum. If I want to up my quantities (100+ on an order usually gets the set-up fee waived) or up the quality (say Lucid or Fuzion instead of Prime) and I'm investing more money upfront and need to make that much more on the back-end to get my money back, and by increasing the quantities I'm likely going to be stuck with at the end of the day.

Forcing me to make player packs optional is basically forcing me to not offer a player pack at all. I'm fine if the argument is to get rid of the PDGA requirement to have them (B & A tiers), but the disc golf world (at least on the PDGA end) isn't trending that way.
Yeah the ability to plan on entry fees for the entire event is a crucial function – particularly when everyone turns in the cards at the end of the final round and they are just standing around waiting for you the TDs to get it done!


Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
THAT is definitely a problem. I was assuming the player pack fee would have nothing to do with payouts. But...hmm...I have seen other optional purchases like discs, tshirts, etc, in tournaments that I played, guessing they probably didn't include that in the total entry fee.
D, yes you can have other items besides entry fees handled online, but they don’t factor in to your point as I see it. Ace pots are a side bet. Everyone who pays in, Pro, Am, int or novice is eligible for the same pot – segregated money. The reason for t-shirts sign up on line – another way to help the TD order the right stuff. I’ve also been around a fiasco where the TD said the entry fee would cover everyone’s t-shirts so the "morning of" signer-uppers came up to the RV, paid, got their t-shirts, and the people some who had signed up early were already out practicing on the course. Right before time for player meeting that morning, the early online signer-uppers came to the RV only to find that these 6’+ 250-lb+ guys would be stuck with choices between medium and small t-shirts even though they had ordered 2X or 3X online…
All in all I don’t see a scenario where the online sign-up helps the logistics of opt-in/opt-out, other than the counting -- which to me is the least of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
True - that does happen.

At the same time, the other 90% think "Awesome, I got a cool players pack" or "Well, even if I do not win anything, at least I got the players pack" or my favorite...........

"There better be a players pack worth X amount if I paid X amount to play", usually not even considering all the other financial obligations and selfless contributions by many people to put on the event in the first place.

_________________

Side note, somewhat related:

Granted - Bringing new players into the disc golf tournament scene is very gratifying and so on...but, more related to your player pack inquiries is the following short novella.

One of my favorite things as a TD is rewarding the players that play my events but will never cash. You know and they know that they most likely will never improve to any real degree. They do not ask for sympathy or walk around sulking. They are the first to compliment you as a TD and are often the players that offer to help before, during and after an event. These players will come to varying events all season and year after year.

Many of these players play many events with very little to nothing to show for their efforts. Not advocating that swag' is the only reason they play, just noting having something physical to show in relation to an activity you are passionate about can be a part of the reward.

It became evident to me that those players fuel a lions share of why I TD and I want make sure that they, specifically, feel as though my events are worth their money, time and participation.

Having an event specific custom stamped disc and logo emblazoned shirt is the least I can do in return for their loyalty. I also think that for some it may be quite an important element of the whole venture.

In my mind, they all now have something to show their friends, family, other kids at school or co-workers. They have something the above people may see them wearing or in their home and open a conversation up about. Maybe playing DG with friends that play casually and they notice the "Cool" stamp on the disc and ask about it, now they can tell of their adventures in tournament play - places they go and people they meet.

Just an overall thought of these players loving "It" and are rewarded by wearing "It" - throwing "It" - sharing "It". Whether the experience of "It" is meeting all the different people, the new courses, road trips, competition, exercise, social aspects or feeling like you have a second family..."It" is important.

So, providing these players with a physical piece of "It" is also providing them with a reason, tool or opportunity to share "It" with their world outside of disc golf. I like to think that regardless of their physical, social, economic or mental status, that this one small piece of "It" will always bring something positive into their world.



EDIT: Too much right? Yeah, I agree. BUT, just wasted the rest of the work day....see ya' suckers!
That’s what I like about the True Am model, or as some have alluded to, the modified True Amateur model (like what Dynamic Discs uses at GBO). You have so many loyal locals, glowing helpful great people in your club, who’ll never complain if they earn an old-fashioned way payout or not. Shouldn’t they be the ones we cater to the most? Don’t they have the best atittudes to help grow the sport? That’s what I think. And on top of that Mod True Am is great on the TD.

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