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View Poll Results: Should the PDGA allow opting out of player packs?
Yes 24 48.98%
No 25 51.02%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old 11-28-2019, 08:14 AM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Note: PDGA sanctioning doesn't allow the "top 3" payout. For sanctioned events, you have to pay the top half.
Not exactly... if you have already met the payout requirement through player's packs (85% for C, 100% for B, etc) you may pay out however you please.
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  #62  
Old 11-28-2019, 09:29 AM
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Good point. Thanks.
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  #63  
Old 11-28-2019, 11:48 AM
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I think a TD could maybe offer opt out for those who register a set number of weeks before the tournament, and those who register later cannot opt out so the TD can predict the players packs and order supplies accordingly.

If the question were “Shoukd the PDGA stop requiring that TDS offer players packs,” I might vote yes, but I’d have to think about it. I think the set percentages of entry fee represented by player pack value would also have to be changed to allow for opt out. I think it’s close to 100% or even 110% depending on tier. So if a player opts out and the players pack has to be valued at 110% if the entry fee, the TD has to pay the player to play the tournament? There would clearly be a problem there.
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  #64  
Old 11-29-2019, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
At the same time, the other 90% think "Awesome, I got a cool players pack" or "Well, even if I do not win anything, at least I got the players pack" or my favorite......
I think you are being VERY generous thinking 90% of the players are happy with their player packs. Especially in the age protected, intermediate, advanced, this number would be much lower imop based on conversations over the years. But...it does greatly fluctuate from tournament to tournament.

The most negative comments I've heard and agree with is when player packs (and even merch) include items heavily branded with the TD running the event, that you have literally no use for. For those that may try to sell them, they have basically zero worth, but on the positive side they typically end up as freebies for noobs. Occasionally a tournament will have a merch voucher as the player pack. Which at the least allows us to pick out something we might actually have a need for. I mean...you can never get enough birdie bags. lol..

I better understand that TDs rely on player packs for a good portion of their revenue.
When you have 90 players, that's potentially....a lot of revenue.

Of Course I see the problem with opting out when player packs fees have to be calculated in payouts. That doesn't make sense to me, but that's the fault of the PDGA not tds. So with that in mind, I agree that my suggestion to opt on/out of player packs is more trouble than it's worth.

Obviously TDs need to make a profit for their time. I would NEVER expect a td to donate his time freely to run a pdga event. According to the PDGA event guidelines, suggested maximum fees for C-Tiers is 40.00 for advanced, 25.00 for intermediate.

A typical scenario for the DFW area 2 Round C-Tiers is 50.00 for adv, 45.00 int, 40.00 rec/novice as shown in this weekend's event TD'd by HyzerBombs Matt Siri. (https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/43122)

Matt's fees are higher than the maximum suggested pricing structure. I'm assuming his prices are higher the max suggested to cover player packs so he can still make a profit from them?

I know the PDGA requires $2.00 per player, why don't they require something like $5-10.00 per player to go directly to the TD's pockets as a minimum payment for their time? They could still profit from other areas (sponsorships, selling merch, etc) if they wanted to explore more profit potential, but a baseline TD fee from each player sounds completely logical to me.

Thank you for all of the comments, much appreciated.

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  #65  
Old 11-29-2019, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
Obviously TDs need to make a profit for their time. I would NEVER expect a td to donate his time freely to run a pdga event. According to the PDGA event guidelines, suggested maximum fees for C-Tiers is 40.00 for advanced, 25.00 for intermediate.
Those suggested maximum fees are net fees and don't include a number of items (see footnote on the table).

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  #66  
Old 11-30-2019, 05:54 AM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
...profit...
QUOTE=DiscFifty;3524955] ...profit...[/QUOTE]

I liked your overall post and agree on some points and not on others, but I think the discussion as a whole has been positive and shed some light on a small part of running PDGA events. IMO, that small part (Finances) is hyper focused on by the player base over the other hundred things that go into running events, it is unfortunate.

I quoted the one word profit because that term does not fit into the thought process or goals of 99% of the TDs I have ever met.

I know it is just a term, but it is a very important and divisive one.

The historical mold is fading a bit, thankfully, but in the past if a TD even remotely seemed to have made a single dime off of an event, there was a good chance they would tied up, dragged down main street behind a wagon and shamed out of town.

Like I noted earlier in the thread with the word revenue, I would also replace profit with the term FUNDS.

Entry fees simply equate to FUNDS that support many aspects of an event.

When you start to marry the terms "TD" and "Profit", you may as well walk into a church and scream every curse word you know.


As far as the idea you proposed of the PDGA mandating that the TD get paid - that is interesting. In that scenario, a PDGA B-Tier where $8 of all participants entries were taken off the top - $3 to the PDGA and $5 to the TD would generally equal $360, per event, to the TD.

Sounds good on the surface, but I think a by-product would be many more people miraculously "volunteering" to run events.

Would this new wave of selfless volunteers (TDs) be a positive? I do not know - on one hand you would have TDs really competing to put on the best events and it may raise the quality level. On the other hand, this would equate to less "stuff" for the AMs and lower cash for PROs and I believe we would see a quick regression. The TDs would be forced to compete for players by incrementally returning that $360 back into the events - putting us right back to where we are now.

I wish I had some ideas of how to change the culture we have built in tournament disc golf, but until the masses value the experience over the rewards, I do not see anything changing.

The only way I ever see TDs getting paid, is if the PDGA were to introduce a number that was not so high that everyone would want to suddenly become a TD and not so low that the trouble of making this radical change is not worth the trouble - then the most important aspect, having all the PDGA members offered a chance to vote on this change. (I bet voter participation would be huge in comparison to voting in new board members)

Maybe that would be a good poll? Maybe it has been done already?

POLL: As a PDGA member, would you vote YES on TDs getting paid, out of entry fees, for running events?

- NO
- YES @ $100
- YES @ $200
- YES @ $300


Simply put, The PDGA could offer the membership a vote (Similar to the above poll) on the new guidelines. Not test it, nothing arbitrary, nothing with the interests of any of the current board members being put ahead of the membership....Then as a group, with consensus - just simply enact it.

It is 4:30AM...maybe I am just typing nonsense.

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Last edited by Chains Bailey; 11-30-2019 at 05:57 AM.
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  #67  
Old 11-30-2019, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
I think you are being VERY generous thinking 90% of the players are happy with their player packs. Especially in the age protected, intermediate, advanced, this number would be much lower imop based on conversations over the years. But...it does greatly fluctuate from tournament to tournament.

The most negative comments I've heard and agree with is when player packs (and even merch) include items heavily branded with the TD running the event, that you have literally no use for. For those that may try to sell them, they have basically zero worth, but on the positive side they typically end up as freebies for noobs. Occasionally a tournament will have a merch voucher as the player pack. Which at the least allows us to pick out something we might actually have a need for. I mean...you can never get enough birdie bags. lol..

I better understand that TDs rely on player packs for a good portion of their revenue.
When you have 90 players, that's potentially....a lot of revenue.

Of Course I see the problem with opting out when player packs fees have to be calculated in payouts. That doesn't make sense to me, but that's the fault of the PDGA not tds. So with that in mind, I agree that my suggestion to opt on/out of player packs is more trouble than it's worth.

Obviously TDs need to make a profit for their time. I would NEVER expect a td to donate his time freely to run a pdga event. According to the PDGA event guidelines, suggested maximum fees for C-Tiers is 40.00 for advanced, 25.00 for intermediate.

A typical scenario for the DFW area 2 Round C-Tiers is 50.00 for adv, 45.00 int, 40.00 rec/novice as shown in this weekend's event TD'd by HyzerBombs Matt Siri. (https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/43122)

Matt's fees are higher than the maximum suggested pricing structure. I'm assuming his prices are higher the max suggested to cover player packs so he can still make a profit from them?

I know the PDGA requires $2.00 per player, why don't they require something like $5-10.00 per player to go directly to the TD's pockets as a minimum payment for their time? They could still profit from other areas (sponsorships, selling merch, etc) if they wanted to explore more profit potential, but a baseline TD fee from each player sounds completely logical to me.

Thank you for all of the comments, much appreciated.
(1) I'm not sure that player packs generate any more profit than prize payouts. I don't know what a "good portion of their revenue" constitutes but, unless the players packs are huge, they're a relatively small part.

(2) The higher entry fees do, in that they mean more merch being distributed, and the TD is usually getting a portion of that.

(3) I don't know whether 90% of players like getting players pack, but an awful lot seem to. At least, TDs think they do, judging by how much they promote the value of the players pack for their events.

(4) Which really comes down to the main factor in all of this---the players packs, the profits (or revenues), and the higher-than-recommended entry fees:

TDs do what most players want. Or, at least, what they believe most players want. They give and boast about players packs, because they assume players like them. They charge higher entry fees so they can give fatter prize payouts, which they assume most players like. They do what other TDs are doing, because they assume that's what most players like.

And as long as players keep showing up and filling events under those models, TDs will continue with them.

Mostly. With more events and players we're seeing a few more experimenting with different financial formulas.

But wrapped up in this is the fact that there's no one right answer that will make everyone happy. Sure, some people don't like players packs (me included). But I've run an event without them---more to the prizes---and had people complain. I've run a low-entry event, which resulted in lower prize payouts, and people complained about their meager winnings (forgetting the money they saved on entry).

Luckily for me, I've also found a sweet spot, running one event per year. It's a low-entry, no-players-pack, low-prize payout event that raises money for charity, with a unique and fun tournament format on a good course. Demand vastly outstrips supply, and everyone who gets in seems to enjoy it. Of course, there may be 100 other players who don't want to come, because it's not what they like, but that's OK.

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  #68  
Old 11-30-2019, 10:33 AM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
QUOTE=DiscFifty;3524955]Maybe that would be a good poll? Maybe it has been done already?

POLL: As a PDGA member, would you vote YES on TDs getting paid, out of entry fees, for running events?

- NO
- YES @ $100
- YES @ $200
- YES @ $300
…

Simply put, The PDGA could offer the membership a vote (Similar to the above poll) on the new guidelines. Not test it, nothing arbitrary, nothing with the interests of any of the current board members being put ahead of the membership....Then as a group, with consensus - just simply enact it.

It is 4:30AM...maybe I am just typing nonsense.
I think this is a VERY good point. I've never thought in my 100+ tournaments a TD should not make as much money as he wants to. I COULD see a problem when the TD is a good friend of the local club, etc, and all the drama that could cause. Maybe out here in the DFW area, where the main TD is Stevo who also runs a DD store, maybe from the start we all knew it was a profit model for him and we accepted that. So yah...maybe it's time to publicly stop hiding the fact that TDs can make money and SHOULD make money for their time. Stevo once explained publicly all the time it takes to run an event, before, during, after, etc. Maybe that information should be more readily available. Perhaps that could lead to a scenario where it makes more sense to opt out of some items included with the event purchase. (Items not included in payouts, etc, etc) I don't mind spending some extra money at a tournament, but if I'm being forced to, I would certainly prefer the option to choose what I want to buy.

So it sounds to me (if the pdga did approve a payment per player) there would still be multiple revenue stream possibilities for TDs:
1) They get x amount per player to guarantee a minimum amount for their time.
2) They can sell merch when players sign up for the tournament.
3) They can sell merch during the tournament.
4) They profit from merch payouts for ams when they buy merch from them.
5) Sponsorships, etc, etc.

This probably deserves it's own thread.. but I'm not going to start it. lol..
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  #69  
Old 11-30-2019, 10:59 AM
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Note that the PDGA allows TDs to retain 15% for C-tiers (required payout is 85%). Around here, it's the culture that doesn't.

There are several factors that vary widely between events, that complicate comparisons:

TDs have varying arrangements for merchandise. Someone who's self-vending, may have a margin of 30% or more. If he has 50 Ams @ $40 entry, that's $2,000 to pay back (players packs and merch)---but may only cost him $1,400, generating $600 revenue. Or more. Which is better than a set fee or percentage. Other TDs don't have the same sort of deal.

Events have varying fixed costs. If you have to pay $1,000 to the parks department to rent the course, and I don't have to pay anything, our bottom lines will be much different. (Some have suggested that the change needed is for fixed costs to be deducted from payouts).

The rub is that if Tournament A has a sweet vending deal and low fixed costs, so pays out almost the entire entry and still profits; but Tournament B does not, so deducts a TD fee and pays out a meager amount; which will players attend?

Sometimes I feel the answer is in an 80-year-old cartoon: We have met the enemy, and he is us.
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  #70  
Old 11-30-2019, 11:05 AM
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An idea I suggested to the PDGA Competition Committee maybe 10 years ago was to simply double the PDGA fees and split them with the TD/club. For example, the PDGA and the TD would each get $2/player in C-tiers, $3/player in B-tiers and $4/player in A-tiers. (They would also split the $10 non-member fee.) The TD would finally get standardized fees from every player including pros. The TD/club would still have the option to either keep their portion of the fees or continue to use any income received towards tournament expenses or boosting payouts.

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