#51  
Old 12-02-2019, 10:31 PM
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BogeyNoMore BogeyNoMore is offline
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^ Sadly, he's right.
Disc Golf: it's all about the money.
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  #52  
Old 12-02-2019, 11:46 PM
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We had a TD scribal error at one of our events where the score recorded on the leaderboard for a player was another player's score (scorecard was correct). This wasn't caught until another player was looking at the results online that night (This was an extreme weather day with a round cut short and the leaderboard was not out in the open as typical, not that any player wanted to be standing outside anyway). This pushed the player with the incorrectly recorded score out of the cash. We did request that player return funds that he did not rightfully earn and distributed them correctly.

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  #53  
Old 12-03-2019, 08:19 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post

I am not aware of how to handle the below situation, if it ever happened....

...how would that be handled and are there specific rules that address this directly? Would the TD just attempt to informally ask the players to work with them to correct the improper payouts? Would the TD be responsible for any money lost to players personally?

In the above hypothetical example, if Matt said he had no interest in returning the $1100 because it was my error as the TD and Ricky and Joel demanded their fair share of the payout - what would be required of me as a TD?
To be clear, my hypothetical example was intended to illustrate that we can't simply separate the payout/awards from the notion of getting the ratings "correct". If we're making a major correction well after the fact, there are consequences that can't be overlooked. Like ru4por says, if you correct results, affected players are likely going to want payouts corrected as well. Can't really do one without the other.

As to how to handle that hypothetical...there is nothing required of the TD because, by PDGA rule, the original results should stand uncorrected. Per the rules, it doesn't matter that that the error occurred because it was found too late. The TD in such a case would be better served to forget the whole thing and never bring it up at all. Not in a cover-it-up sense, but more in a don't bother to dig for the "truth" at all sense. What's done is done.

I'm not trying to argue that this is "right", BTW. I'm only arguing what the rules dictate. If the rules were changed, then consideration should be given to how to go about correcting all errors including payouts. But until that happens (and I suspect it won't any time soon), I think the status quo will be that inputting errors (typos and mistakes in the report itself) should be corrected, but player errors that go undiscovered prior to awards should not be corrected after the fact.
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  #54  
Old 12-03-2019, 08:40 AM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
To be clear, my hypothetical example was intended to illustrate that we can't simply separate the payout/awards from the notion of getting the ratings "correct". If we're making a major correction well after the fact, there are consequences that can't be overlooked. Like ru4por says, if you correct results, affected players are likely going to want payouts corrected as well. Can't really do one without the other.

As to how to handle that hypothetical...there is nothing required of the TD because, by PDGA rule, the original results should stand uncorrected. Per the rules, it doesn't matter that that the error occurred because it was found too late. The TD in such a case would be better served to forget the whole thing and never bring it up at all. Not in a cover-it-up sense, but more in a don't bother to dig for the "truth" at all sense. What's done is done.

I'm not trying to argue that this is "right", BTW. I'm only arguing what the rules dictate. If the rules were changed, then consideration should be given to how to go about correcting all errors including payouts. But until that happens (and I suspect it won't any time soon), I think the status quo will be that inputting errors (typos and mistakes in the report itself) should be corrected, but player errors that go undiscovered prior to awards should not be corrected after the fact.
Thanks for the response - I understood what your point was and was just curious if there was anything to guide a TD if your scenario actually played out. $50 here and there at a C or B-Tier is not too much to handle if needed from my pocket, but the larger sums would be troublesome.

I think I answered my own question, in that, maybe the best remedy would be the TD trying to informally reach out to the players to square up the payouts. Your point is taken though, may be best to just allow things to stand as is and not throw a wrench in your own dealings.
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  #55  
Old 12-03-2019, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
To be clear, my hypothetical example was intended to illustrate that we can't simply separate the payout/awards from the notion of getting the ratings "correct"...
And to be clear, when I mentioned getting the scores, the standings, and ultimately the ratings correct, ratings were the 3rd item mentioned (least impacted, barely even worth mentioning).

In any case, I got my answer from you guys and then some -- along with a couple of great stories by Chuck and Mike.

On a somewhat related subject, have any of you tried using the PDGA's digital scorecard yet?
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  #56  
Old 12-03-2019, 11:48 AM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Originally Posted by Consult20 View Post

On a somewhat related subject, have any of you tried using the PDGA's digital scorecard yet?
I have played 4-5 events using it. It is being pushed around here since Ganz is a Virginian and there are multiple PDGA Board members in Northern Virginia. My first inclination was to hate it and I still have no intention of keeping score that way myself but it works well as long as someone in the group is willing to do it. I don't see myself ever being comfortable with eliminating the paper scorecard for backup though (which I am perfectly willing to keep myself).

It benefits events as a whole in eliminating the need for TD's to check player's math. It also allows players to watch how opponents not in their group are scoring during the round which I like personally. Another benefit is it gets the individual hole scores into the system which is useful data in any number of ways.

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  #57  
Old 12-03-2019, 11:58 AM
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Thread Diversion: Getting Round Ratings determined as accurately as possible is more important in disc golf than most other sports (that we know of) because our player ratings are used to produce new ratings in a continuous loop. In other individual sports, a player's ranking or rating is typically not produced by the ratings of the pool of propagators competing with them or is done that way indirectly.

If a player's time or score in another sport is entered incorrectly and results in an incorrect rating/ranking, it normally only affects that player. Get the score wrong in disc golf, and the resulting erroneous round rating can literally propagate through future events, not only the ones that player plays, but the events all of the other propagators play who got a slightly different round rating as a result of that original error.

Related to this thread, I've always been concerned whether certain types of penalties like the 2-stroke penalty for scoring errors should be included in a player's score for ratings. These weren't throws the player made. However, the hassle of reporting both scorecard totals along with the occasional exception scores used for ratings (subtracting non-throwing penalties) never seemed worth the administrative effort.
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  #58  
Old 12-03-2019, 12:13 PM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is offline
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
If a player's time or score in another sport is entered incorrectly and results in an incorrect rating/ranking, it normally only affects that player. Get the score wrong in disc golf, and the resulting erroneous round rating can literally propagate through future events, not only the ones that player plays, but the events all of the other propagators play who got a slightly different round rating as a result of that original error.

Related to this thread, I've always been concerned whether certain types of penalties like the 2-stroke penalty for scoring errors should be included in a player's score for ratings. These weren't throws the player made. However, the hassle of reporting both scorecard totals along with the occasional exception scores used for ratings (subtracting non-throwing penalties) never seemed worth the administrative effort.
Agreed. Plus this rule is ridiculous as well: "Failure to turn in a scorecard on time results in the addition of two penalty throws to the score of each player listed on the late scorecard."

I maybe could see the player who brings the card in late, but the entire card? When were these rules put in place? Recently or perhaps decades ago?
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  #59  
Old 12-03-2019, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post

Related to this thread, I've always been concerned whether certain types of penalties like the 2-stroke penalty for scoring errors should be included in a player's score for ratings. These weren't throws the player made. However, the hassle of reporting both scorecard totals along with the occasional exception scores used for ratings (subtracting non-throwing penalties) never seemed worth the administrative effort.
IMO players suffering non-throwing penalties should not be used as propagators at the very least. I would be fine if they simply received no rating for the applicable round either but that seems counter to the PDGA's apparent goal of rating everything.
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  #60  
Old 12-03-2019, 12:23 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
Agreed. Plus this rule is ridiculous as well: "Failure to turn in a scorecard on time results in the addition of two penalty throws to the score of each player listed on the late scorecard."

I maybe could see the player who brings the card in late, but the entire card? When were these rules put in place? Recently or perhaps decades ago?
It's EVERY player's responsibility to make sure their score is reported properly. If you can't be bothered to ensure your scorecard is turned in promptly by doing it yourself, you're abdicating your responsibility and deserve any penalty that might come from doing so.

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