#71  
Old 06-13-2019, 10:35 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by dorseymatt View Post
Anyone have any guesses as to what percentage of sold/moved discs are via players packs and am payouts, vs retail?

Im skeptical that it was an accident it got this way.

How dependent on this system are the disc manufacturers to move their product?

My guess: significantly.
In the early days, before the internet in particular, I'd guess a lot more discs were sold for the purposes of player packs and prizes than by any other means. It's not like there were a lot of brick and mortar stores where one could go buy a disc, so players usually had two ways to get new discs: mail order or from their local connection (club, TD, player selling out of his trunk, etc).

These days, I'd imagine more discs are moved via normal retail outlets than through tournaments. Between big box stores that carry discs and all the online options, not to mention the local brick and mortars, there have to be more sales on that side than via am payouts.

Which is probably why the "true amateur" model has met less resistance in the last few years than it might have 15-20 years ago.
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  #72  
Old 06-13-2019, 11:23 AM
dorseymatt dorseymatt is offline
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
In the early days, before the internet in particular, I'd guess a lot more discs were sold for the purposes of player packs and prizes than by any other means. It's not like there were a lot of brick and mortar stores where one could go buy a disc, so players usually had two ways to get new discs: mail order or from their local connection (club, TD, player selling out of his trunk, etc).

These days, I'd imagine more discs are moved via normal retail outlets than through tournaments. Between big box stores that carry discs and all the online options, not to mention the local brick and mortars, there have to be more sales on that side than via am payouts.

Which is probably why the "true amateur" model has met less resistance in the last few years than it might have 15-20 years ago.
Good point. Even if it accounts now for (only) 20% of moved product, if the system significantly changed, that could be a serious problem for manufacturers.
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  #73  
Old 06-13-2019, 01:18 PM
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Jouni Jouni is offline
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I would happily pay less for amateur division and let that money go to TD, and get nothing in return expect fun and excitement about what my rounds will be rated this time.

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  #74  
Old 06-13-2019, 01:29 PM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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Originally Posted by Motorpro View Post
All this talk about amatures not playing for the fun of the game is silly. You people talk like the only amatures are designated that by the gods of the PDGA. Go to the local parks any day there is no event going on and you find real Am's playing for the fun of the game. Some play alone to beat the course. Some play with there friends for bragging rights. Some will play with anyone they run into for the fun of it. I have met players who could give some pros a run for their money but mostly people like me who will most likely never throw past 300' But they play because they love it. Sure I like to play in an event once in a while but those rounds with friends or strangers can be just as exiting and fun.
I don't think anyone is actually saying that. Indeed, it seemed to me that Biscoe wanted to know why we went down this path since it's fairly uncommon. JH's comments, to me. show that bribing ams to play wasn't even in the equation.

I'd think a discussion about ending the process and whether we're too inculcated in the gift culture would be interesting. But, it's already happened on other threads.

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  #75  
Old 06-13-2019, 01:35 PM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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As an aside, this is one of the more interesting discussions I've read in some time. Thanks for raising it Biscoe, and thanks to John for enlightenment.

I always try and get this message out. When I first started playing in Texas, the universal name all the old guy's mentioned was John's. His hard work, generosity, and passion were admired. If we all took his approach the world would be a better place.

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  #76  
Old 06-13-2019, 02:19 PM
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I loved the "World's Biggest". It always did get new players out. Thanks, John! I didn't know that was you who started it.

And I agree, I've truly enjoyed reading this thread.
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  #77  
Old 06-13-2019, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by johnrhouck View Post
Here's what I do remember: very early on it was common practice (and conventional wisdom) to take some of the "profit" from the amateurs and use it to enhance the pro purse. Seemed like a great way to reward and attract the pros.

But some of the amateurs thought that was an unfair practice and put heat on TD's. For better or worse, many TD's, including me, wanted to keep the ams happy so that they would continue to play.
This is exactly why I quit playing in tourneys. I didn't mind if the TD made money off my entry because the TD is putting in a lot of work. When the entry fees for ams got boosted so the pro payout was higher, I called it quits. I wasn't playing with the pros nor was I able to watch the pros and I wasn't going to pay extra just to be in the same park with them nor pay extra just so they could take home more money. I wasn't going to be used to prop up the pro division.

It was also about this time that am winners started getting large piles of loot. Instead of a couple of discs, a winner got a stack of discs. I wasn't interested in going down that road, either, despite being able to place well. It appeared that the days of showing up to play for fun and support TDs was going away.
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  #78  
Old 06-13-2019, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motorpro View Post
All this talk about amatures not playing for the fun of the game is silly.
The context of the discussion is that of attending tournaments. Nobody is speaking of casual play outside tourneys.
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  #79  
Old 06-13-2019, 02:40 PM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
In the early days, before the internet in particular, I'd guess a lot more discs were sold for the purposes of player packs and prizes than by any other means.
I'm not so sure about that. As a guy who sold discs out of his trunk in the mid-'80's and then to stores in Austin by maybe the late '80's, I think Motopro has actually pointed us in the direction of the answer to the sales questions.

Players who entered tournaments and finished well may have gotten a good percentage of their personal discs from tournaments, but those who rarely placed wouldn't have gotten much -- as I recall player packages were not a big deal early on. And of course the overwhelming majority of players never entered tournaments, and they all had discs. So I'd educatedly guess that the great majority of discs came from local people at the course, clubs, mail order, and forward-thinking stores.

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  #80  
Old 06-13-2019, 03:06 PM
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ChrisWoj ChrisWoj is offline
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Why is it automatically a scam if the entry isn't returned in tangible (as in merchandise) value? What if 80% of the entry went toward compensating tournament staff? If there's a starter on tee 1 and course officials every three holes and a manned snack cart at the turn, are those guys supposed to be out there all day out of the goodness of their heart?
I agree. That's what I am asking him. Those are benefits to the player. If 60-125 is paying for that, there you go.
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