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View Poll Results: Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open?
A par 2 where 38% of throws are errors, and 1% of throws are hero throws. 6 25.00%
A par 3 where 24% of throws are errors, and 33% of throws are hero throws. 16 66.67%
A par 4 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 23% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes. 0 0%
A par 6 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 62% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
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  #4111  
Old 10-12-2020, 08:54 PM
Steve West Steve West is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
Since the actual definition has only three variables for the TD to consider when determining par, what do you think they're getting wrong?
They're not getting it wrong; they can't possibly be wrong: ", as determined by the Director" is very important.

They are not interpreting those parts of the definition differently, they are choosing to not use the definition.

Sometimes, they set aside the definition and set par according to some other rule of thumb, like "reach plus two", or "all par 3s must be ace-able", or "the whole field should expect to birdie", or "the longest hole on the course must have a higher par". That practice is actually getting pretty rare these days.

Sometimes, they are just using the tee sign pars. Tee sign pars are almost always set for the Recreational, Intermediate, or Advanced skill levels - to increase the popularity of the course. In other words, the TDs choose not bother to put more effort into the tournament by setting par for experts. (Which is quite understandable.)

Sometimes, they are holding events on such short courses there would be some par 2s, but they don't call them that because "the pros would kill me". (Again, understandable.)

Sometimes, they decide to pump up par with the intent of creating "lots of eagles!!!" or some similar BS-based hype. (OK, this one actually bothers me. Still, it's their choice to make.)

To sum up, there is fairly widespread agreement about what par should be, but less widespread discipline in implementing it. Which is probably OK for now. TDs have too much to do already. They need to be free to make the decisions which are right for them.

At some point we will reach a tipping point where it will become easier for TDs to set par according to the definition than to explain why they didn't.

We are getting nearer to (or maybe are already at) that tipping point because of more widespread awareness of the actual, real, official definition of par; thousands of people watching commentators on videos describe what score pros should really expect on mis-parred holes; and hole-by-hole scores being digitized for so many tournaments.
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  #4112  
Old 10-12-2020, 09:42 PM
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teemkey teemkey is online now
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I wonder if it might be more effective to convince the committee that awards PDGA Tour status to a tournament to favor venues that set par in accordance with the PDGA recommendation, all other considerations being equal. It should be easier to convince a smaller group of people, all of whom are known to care about the public's image of disc golf.

Perhaps you could come up with an easy to understand metric that demonstrates compliance?
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  #4113  
Old 10-12-2020, 10:36 PM
txmxer txmxer is offline
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One of the reasons this is a discussion is Paul shot -18. Twice. And a few -16s or what have you.

I would certainly agree that if the majority throw birdie or better or it’s all par and higher there is room for debate on the correct PAR for a hole.

In most of the charts presented we see one or two holes that don’t align well with PAR. Of course some that is created by poor design but excess use of OB to create score diversity.

The stats are fascinating and interesting but most of this is unnecessary. The eye test can tell which holes need work or tweaked PAR.

As far as stats go, I think there are three key stats on par: below, above, and at par. Most double and triple bogeys are anomalies and should be weighed the same. If there are a lot of eagles, It’s likely PAR is high.

And Billy is right—PAR is arbitrary. Least strokes wins.
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  #4114  
Old 10-13-2020, 11:12 AM
Steve West Steve West is online now
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Bringing this into the right thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billipo View Post
Thanks for response.

Besides I depth analysis, I do believe there should be a simpler, easily applied, universally recognized way to determine par based on performance versus the pdga distance/ foliage colorful chart or reach green plus two.

A simple system may not be perfect, but better is always better. Especially if using real performance numbers. I forsee it more of a litmus test using distances, averages (skill appropriate players), score distribution, special circumstances (water,dogleg, judgement) as factors towards determining par. Ideally plug in scores (maybe current player rating), spits out proposed par.

Something universally understood for practical application by average Joe. Just my thought.
I must point out that "Reach green plus two" is not disc golf par, and never was.

Most TDs, players and commentators who actually try to set par for Open players based on the definition get it right. It seems to be really easy to pick the score that would be expected of an expert. We might not need a prescribed method.

That doesn't mean I haven't made a litmus test to see whether they tried or not.

This is a standard for par based on the scoring distribution of 1000-rated players (more precisely, a group of players who are near 1000 and whose average rating is 1000).

If at least 77% of the 100-rated players score an ace, it's a par 1. Otherwise, if at least 59% of 1000-rated players score two or ace it, it's a par 2. Otherwise, 45% for par 3, 35% for par 4, and 26% for par 5, 20% for par 6, etc.

I call this "standard" because par would represent to the same skill level across all events and across all hole par values (2 to 6). The single parameter (23/30=77%) was optimized to maximize the information value of the difference between par and score, which also makes the value of a birdie equal to the cost of a bogey.

TDs are, of course, free to depart from the standard. And, there will always be holes that are on the bubble and could go either way.

There is another broad-brush test that is more easily applied. If par was set correctly, an even-par round should be rated between 990 and 1030, most commonly 1010. 1030 on the most punishing courses (more OB), 990 in the least punishing courses.

So, anytime a round rating for even par is lower than 990, par is suspect.

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  #4115  
Old 10-19-2020, 11:36 AM
adamgservo adamgservo is offline
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Steve - I played in a tournament last weekend and I grabbed all the hole-by-hole scoring data and arranged each hole into percentages for taking 2, 3, 4 , etc.. I know you had previously mentioned the preferred ranges for the scoring distributions, but I can't remember it.

I am interesting in categorizing which holes are good/bad at providing scoring distributions. Particularly those that had multiple pin positions.

Also what do you think of holes that give 40/40/20 scoring distributions? There were 2 of those. And another that was really close to that: 20/45/35
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  #4116  
Old 10-19-2020, 12:59 PM
Steve West Steve West is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamgservo View Post
Steve - I played in a tournament last weekend and I grabbed all the hole-by-hole scoring data and arranged each hole into percentages for taking 2, 3, 4 , etc.. I know you had previously mentioned the preferred ranges for the scoring distributions, but I can't remember it.

I am interesting in categorizing which holes are good/bad at providing scoring distributions. Particularly those that had multiple pin positions.

Also what do you think of holes that give 40/40/20 scoring distributions? There were 2 of those. And another that was really close to that: 20/45/35
The only really bad scoring distribution is a lot of one score. The two you mention are about as far from that as they can get.

I prefer a mix of scoring distributions rather than trying to get all holes to have any "ideal" one. The different splits are like chopping a cucumber at different spots. You get more slices that way.

Usually, multiple pin positions gives wider scoring spreads (when both are used in one tournament) because they're like two different holes. Just as playing two different courses will provide better scoring spreads than re-playing the same course. If you have the resources to switch, use both pin locations instead of picking the better location. (As long as both are palatable to the players.)
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  #4117  
Old 10-19-2020, 01:26 PM
adamgservo adamgservo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
The only really bad scoring distribution is a lot of one score. The two you mention are about as far from that as they can get.

I prefer a mix of scoring distributions rather than trying to get all holes to have any "ideal" one. The different splits are like chopping a cucumber at different spots. You get more slices that way.

Usually, multiple pin positions gives wider scoring spreads (when both are used in one tournament) because they're like two different holes. Just as playing two different courses will provide better scoring spreads than re-playing the same course. If you have the resources to switch, use both pin locations instead of picking the better location. (As long as both are palatable to the players.)
I was actually analyzing the multi-pin holes as 2 different holes since the pin positions were really different. Sometimes even changing par on the hole.

What is the threshold for a lot of one score? Like 65-70%?

One hole that had the most scoring variance went 30/35/25/10. A par 4 with a specific landing zone, a mando, thick rough on one side, and OB road on the other side. That seems like a really good one.
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  #4118  
Old 10-19-2020, 03:40 PM
Steve West Steve West is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamgservo View Post
I was actually analyzing the multi-pin holes as 2 different holes since the pin positions were really different. Sometimes even changing par on the hole.

What is the threshold for a lot of one score? Like 65-70%?

One hole that had the most scoring variance went 30/35/25/10. A par 4 with a specific landing zone, a mando, thick rough on one side, and OB road on the other side. That seems like a really good one.
As two holes works, too.

Yeah, about 65-70% at the most. Depending on the group of players you are looking at. If it's a bunch rated 800 through 1050, there shouldn't be any particular score that a lot of people get.

In that 30/35/25/10 if the 35 is the 2s, 3s, or 4s, then that score should be par.
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  #4119  
Old 10-19-2020, 04:56 PM
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Steve, it's refreshing to see that you still do not understand par, nor do you recognize the two issues that prevent disc golf from ever have a definition of par that makes you happy.
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  #4120  
Old 10-19-2020, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
As two holes works, too.

Yeah, about 65-70% at the most. Depending on the group of players you are looking at. If it's a bunch rated 800 through 1050, there shouldn't be any particular score that a lot of people get.

In that 30/35/25/10 if the 35 is the 2s, 3s, or 4s, then that score should be par.
The 35 was a score of 4, and it was considered a par 4.

Thanks for the input.
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