#111  
Old 10-20-2020, 10:11 AM
Orioles_Lefty Orioles_Lefty is offline
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Ideally, the quality or meaning of a throw needs to be immediately visible or understood even by inexperienced viewers. If you have to use fancy graphics and/or commentary to explain a shot, it's a bit like having to explain a joke.
I watched skateboarding without understanding what the board was doing on every trick. Now I had some idea if the trick was landed with at least some effectiveness, obviously.

Watching disc golf requires watching the throw and then processing the result of the throw. That can’t be instantly understood by an inexperienced viewer. That’s an impossibility.

If they are going to do post-production commentary for the ESPN2 broadcast then they would be wise to not call the action with a “suspended disbelief” act like it’s kind of mostly “live” approach like Jomez usually does if they want the viewer to know more than can be known in real time.

There should be some viewer anticipation to find out what the resulting lie and line will be. I think viewing disc golf is a 2-part action: witnessing the throw and coming to know the result of it. We can know “that throw went left and he might be pinched off” but we don’t actually know the result until we advance to and take in the lie for the next throw.

As others have said, there’s flight tracking technology and graphics that can help with this work. The “post round” edited productions probably work against some of these options. The quick cut from last tee shot to first approach shot doean’t allow for much mental processing time. If the goal is for viewers to process more information, than they need time to do so.

We might, therefore, conclude that how the sport is presented in these edited windows like on ESPN2 (presumably) doesn’t accurately reflect the actual lived experience. I suspect they are trying to get into the production as many throws as possible. A goal of quantity will diminish quality in ways.

I could see an argument for bringing back Final 9s in some form.
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  #112  
Old 10-20-2020, 10:11 AM
txmxer txmxer is offline
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I tried the “aim for the tree” method on a hole with a 12” tree 60’ in front of the tee Saturday. I could not have hit it more square if I had walked over to the tree and hit with a hammer.
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  #113  
Old 10-20-2020, 10:40 AM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is online now
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Kevin Jones has all the qualities of a super sports star and will do the sport proud when this is aired on ESPN2.

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  #114  
Old 10-20-2020, 11:08 AM
1978 1978 is offline
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Originally Posted by txmxer View Post
Interesting event. The tournament style format was definitely different. Not sure this is the best course for it. If a player starts out a little off, not much of a chance to recover and get back in the groove.

it is an interesting course. Like someone said, kind of heavily dependent on the 400' laser shot. Calvin's unwinding after an amazing -10 round is very telling about just how tough this course is and the other side of the coin for KJUSA and his consistency under pressure.

The course only gives an inch, try to take a mile and bogey+ is in your future. There are a few ace run opportunities (though highly unlikely), but a player needs to be super consistent for 18 holes to score well.
Im not sure the commentary was completely accurate. As the actual designer of 3s new pad, 9 and 14 including the actual person that placed the tee on 13, pin on 7, 12, 15 and suggested the ladies tee on 18. I can make some comments.

3 - Tee placement was supposed to be straight back but parks wouldn't allow 2 mature trees to be eliminated. The back left spot was more open and added a little length to the existing shot. The green on three is cleared much further left. No one took advantage of that area which would have eliminated the need for extreme anny shots

9 - This shot is straight at the beginning however players could hyzer left and be inside the circle long and left.
13 - Never was and never is a sidearm hole. As you saw from the coverage almost no shot flared way left. You saw most sidearms fail. A tree by last years short basket forces you to hyzer early. At that point the ground raises up, so back hands hit that hill lose all their speed and skip down inside the circle. Anything that would have flared through the green gets gobbled up 50ft short by the big tree. Sidearms lose their glide and end up right or short. It is extremely hard to stop a sidearm on the back side of the hill before the basket.
14 - This shot was never meant to be a long late turn over. KJ's park job was a pretty wide swinging sidearm. The idea of this hole was to trick players into thinking they need to go right when a straight or slightly fading hyzer would bring you to the back of the green, clear, inside the circle. Calvins shot in the Semi's was a perfect example of how the hole was supposed to be played. KJ's in the finals is a perfect example of the hardest but most risky play.
15 - moved it back last year because Stan McDaniel had cleared the land 10+ years ago and there were basically no trees.
18 - I suggested to add drama to the ladies field, 18 did not have separation last year. I think that hole succeeded. Any player in the field could birdie 18.

Ultimately, the idea was to place the fear of the back 9 into the players so they pushed hard on the front. Ultimately, as it played out perfectly, players were aggressive and succeeded or failed on the front. There were come backs on the back. In other formats players would have obliterated the front. With the pressure of ESPN, payout, and difficulty of the back we got to see these players are human on a relatively easy front 10 holes.

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  #115  
Old 10-20-2020, 11:16 AM
1978 1978 is offline
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Also, final thought. I mentioned this to a commentator. Blows my mind they didn't talk about it. In 2010 the Carolina Clash was an NT. Climo, Ulibari, Feldberg and Locastro final card. I was carrying the leaderboard and saw the best throw I've ever seen. 17 back then was same tee and slightly shorter basket right (20ft right and left). Fairway was 15ft wide, 100% shule either side, not cleared out like we have made it sense to 20ft off fairway. Ulibari threw a Star Destroyer, did a KJ fall off the box. His disc pured the fairway, flared up the hill and hit a spectator standing by the pipe. He had a jump putt for double eagle and took an eagle on the hole. Uli somehow doesn't remember that shot 10 years ago and they kept saying it was only eagled once in tournament play even though like 40 people witnessed Uli do it in the 2010 clash. Anyways, it is interesting to see the inside and then watch the coverage.

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  #116  
Old 10-20-2020, 11:19 AM
1978 1978 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jimb View Post
Unfortunately, I fear that you will be sorely disappointed.

The ESPN2 coverage is two hours and it is showing both FPO and MPO, right? So that's 36 holes of golf.

A typical 9 hole edited round is 30 minutes. So without any other interruptions, 36 holes can fit into 2 hours of edited footage.

However, with the "player profile" type content and commercials, it just doesn't seem to leave time for hole by hole/shot by shot coverage. It will be very interesting to see what Jomez and co. can do within the timeframe limitations.
Their plan for the 88 minutes of coverage over the 2 hours is sound and will be exciting and understandable to the casual viewer. They put a lot of thought into it and I think it will go over well.

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  #117  
Old 10-20-2020, 03:11 PM
jvphobic jvphobic is offline
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I have nothing to do with the ESPN content but... My best guess is if you have 88 minutes of airtime...

10-15% will be "How we got here"
5-10% will be player bios and features/interviews
75% will be disc golf (split evenly between FPO & MPO)

So, that is about 30 minutes for each division. My guess is that you see maybe 6-7 holes of each division. And it probably won't include every player. You probably won't see much of Hannum & Heimburg after the first 2 holes or so.

As for wooded golf. It is very difficult for us to film. If it is heavily wooded, I tend to use the throw camera more because they are usually directly behind the thrower and can see down the fairway. Cutting to the catch cam is disorienting in those scenarios, and I try to do it as late as possible. I would love to integrate something like the old school USDGC Dots into our broadcast for the really wooded courses, it would give the viewer a better perspective of where each player lands sometimes.

But, live flight tracking software is not really possible for disc golf. Those systems are crazy expensive, and they require a stationary camera and only work from one direction. So it would be useful in very few situations.
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  #118  
Old 10-20-2020, 03:11 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Commentators and graphics are useful to set up the context of the next shot. But once it's thrown, it's better if the result is visible or understandable such as did the player sink the putt or not, did the player get out of jail and close enough to be able to make the next putt, did the shot land clean in the wooded fairway, etc. While bird's eye views are intuitive to many, there are many who have difficulty translating hole overview maps into what it means on the ground.

There is an answer to "which tree to hit". Decide which route gives you the better chance to hit a tree closer to the basket if every route has trees to avoid.
Yep, "hit a far tree" is good advice. In the beginner league we were playing on a golf course, yet, the beginners still thought that hitting certain trees was a sub-goal you must accomplish before any hole is complete. Based on my exemplary play.

Anyway... Sure, both is better. If I had to choose between playing only those holes where each throw is understandable to newbs vs. using graphics and commentary, I'll go with the ever-improving graphics and commentary - which can also work while the disc is still in flight.
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  #119  
Old 10-20-2020, 03:33 PM
Dingus Dingus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Commentators and graphics are useful to set up the context of the next shot. But once it's thrown, it's better if the result is visible or understandable such as did the player sink the putt or not, did the player get out of jail and close enough to be able to make the next putt, did the shot land clean in the wooded fairway, etc. While bird's eye views are intuitive to many, there are many who have difficulty translating hole overview maps into what it means on the ground.
.
I disagree with this. I find it impossible to judge a ball golf shot without some context from the booth. So he hit the ball ten feet short of the green on the fairway. Was that good? Did everyone else get on the green? Did he have to cut a corner and fly a bunker to get there?

In golf I want the commentator to tell me what the player is lining up for. “Paul has his most overstable Destroyer in hand, it looks like he is going to throw a high flex shot and try to come back hard right to left”. Then I can watch the shot and judge how good it was based on how the commentator teed it up. And if the player did something unexpected the commentator can correct their error and add to the excitement of the creative shot.

TLDR: commentator makes a big difference
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  #120  
Old 10-20-2020, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingus View Post
I disagree with this. I find it impossible to judge a ball golf shot without some context from the booth. So he hit the ball ten feet short of the green on the fairway. Was that good? Did everyone else get on the green? Did he have to cut a corner and fly a bunker to get there?

In golf I want the commentator to tell me what the player is lining up for. “Paul has his most overstable Destroyer in hand, it looks like he is going to throw a high flex shot and try to come back hard right to left”. Then I can watch the shot and judge how good it was based on how the commentator teed it up. And if the player did something unexpected the commentator can correct their error and add to the excitement of the creative shot.

TLDR: commentator makes a big difference
Note: I said the Commentator can be helpful to provide context to "set up" the throw, i.e., before the shot. If they need to comment during the shot, it might as well be radio, especially when they are looking at the same video feed as the viewers.

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