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View Poll Results: Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open?
A par 2 where 38% of throws are errors, and 1% of throws are hero throws. 6 25.00%
A par 3 where 24% of throws are errors, and 33% of throws are hero throws. 16 66.67%
A par 4 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 23% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes. 0 0%
A par 6 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 62% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1641  
Old 09-14-2017, 10:31 PM
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Olorin Olorin is offline
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Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
Houston, we have a par problem... Maybe?

Somewhere in the bowels, Steve gave a list of the advantages of having accurate par. It's a nice summation.
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Or Olorin will show up, and this will become a long thread.
I'm finally showing up... replying to when it was merely post 1596...

See Why Disc Golf needs consistent par standards

Now I guess this thread will get long...
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  #1642  
Old 09-16-2017, 08:04 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Default Discraft's Green Mountain Championship

Par for the Brewster Ridge course was perfect for the FPO division. Even par was rated 969 and 956.

For MPO, par was at least 3 too high. Even par was rated 959 and 956.

Holes #3, #6, and #17 definitely had enough birdies (for 1000-rated players) to be lower par, and a lot of other holes had lots of birdies almost enough to qualify for lower pars on those holes. (See all the gold bars that reach almost all the way down to the next lower integer.) So, if pars on #3, #6, and #17 were lowered, par would only have been rated 986 and 983.

If I were TD for the next big event here, I would set par at 57 by lowering par on holes #17, #8 and #11. Then toughen up #3 and especially #6 which are par 2s now.
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  #1643  
Old 09-16-2017, 08:16 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Default Discraft's Green Mountain Championship

Par for Fox Run was just right, in total, for FPO. Holes #5 and #13 should swap pars. An even par round was rated 961 and 956.

For MPO (who played a different layout), there were enough birdies on 5 holes to qualify for a lower par. Three of these were actually par 2s. So, Id at least change par on #1 and #16 from 4 down to 3, which would raise the rating for even par up to 996 and 995. Then, look at whether #6, #10 and #17 are cool enough to survive as par 2s.

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  #1644  
Old 09-16-2017, 08:19 PM
2naphish 2naphish is offline
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Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
This has been debated ad nauseam. Nothing says you can't have a par 2 but personal taste. Ideally, the hole would be adjusted, not par.
par is established when an expert golfer drives and 2 putts. there is no par 2.

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  #1645  
Old 09-16-2017, 09:18 PM
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par is established when an expert golfer drives and 2 putts. there is no par 2.
Please show me the written rule that says par can't be 2? Your quoting the PDGA def, but they blew it. That "rule" is a rule of thumb calculation used to determine par in BG. Someone got lazy and wrote it as our definition of par.

The real definition of par is what an expert player is expected to get on a hole. Now, we might decide to stick with a BG rule of thumb as our official rule for par, but it makes us look stupid. Hey look, players averaged 2.2 throws on this hole, why do you guys call it par 3? As I wrote, the hole should be fixed to play something closer to par 3.
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  #1646  
Old 09-16-2017, 10:06 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by 2naphish View Post
par is established when an expert golfer drives and 2 putts. there is no par 2.
Hmmm, I don't see "putt" in the definition.

But say it was, what if no drive was needed to start putting? What's par then?
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  #1647  
Old 09-17-2017, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
Please show me the written rule that says par can't be 2? Your quoting the PDGA def, but they blew it. That "rule" is a rule of thumb calculation used to determine par in BG. Someone got lazy and wrote it as our definition of par.

The real definition of par is what an expert player is expected to get on a hole. Now, we might decide to stick with a BG rule of thumb as our official rule for par, but it makes us look stupid. Hey look, players averaged 2.2 throws on this hole, why do you guys call it par 3? As I wrote, the hole should be fixed to play something closer to par 3.
Actually, misquoting the rule.
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  #1648  
Old 09-17-2017, 08:46 AM
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But say it was, what if no drive was needed to start putting? What's par then?
That's not a thing.

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  #1649  
Old 09-17-2017, 08:59 AM
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No, but there certainly are a lot of holes that people play with just a putter, from beginning to end.

Don't see that very often in golf.

But, hey, maybe they're different games?

Funny, but despite their similarities in name and general concept, and the fact that disc golf derived from golf, the idea that they're different games is, mostly, noncontroversial. There are many dozens, probably even hundreds, of golf rules and design concepts and terminology and customs that don't apply to disc golf---either aren't applied literally, or aren't applied at all. You could easily go through golf rules and say "We don't do this" or "This doesn't apply to us" and the only reply you'd get would be, "Of course not". Yet, for some aspects---including par and particularly the idea of 2 putts on a designated green, but others as well---it seems to be blasphemy to tailor them to our game.

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  #1650  
Old 09-17-2017, 10:31 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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I'll explain that:

Fundamentally, disc golfers want the toughest possible courses and then to shred those courses with ease.

Inflated par (let's add one more putt than an expert would expect!) lets us feel like we have both.

Setting par correctly takes away our free lunch. Nothing causes louder or more sustained whining than taking away something people have been getting without earning it.

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