#81  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:28 PM
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Live viewers are important to create the feel of a "Major" event. Live viewers contribute to the overall experience of the online viewer. Look at European Open 2019. Does this event have the same 'feel' if there are few or no spectators? NO of course not. It is really important to create conditions to get live viewers out to ohh and ahhh and cheer the shots, because it goes into the overall product on the screen. NFL, PL Soccer, etc all rely on the local fans to create the right environment. Part of what I'm buying when I pay for streaming service is the passion of the local fans. I wouldn't want to watch the same match in an empty stadium.

Saying one is more important (in-person vs. online) than the other is missing the mark, IMO. We should be encouraging both to grow, and they are linked.
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  #82  
Old 12-02-2019, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by esdubya View Post
Live viewers are important to create the feel of a "Major" event. Live viewers contribute to the overall experience of the online viewer. Look at European Open 2019. Does this event have the same 'feel' if there are few or no spectators? NO of course not. It is really important to create conditions to get live viewers out to ohh and ahhh and cheer the shots, because it goes into the overall product on the screen. NFL, PL Soccer, etc all rely on the local fans to create the right environment. Part of what I'm buying when I pay for streaming service is the passion of the local fans. I wouldn't want to watch the same match in an empty stadium.

Saying one is more important (in-person vs. online) than the other is missing the mark, IMO. We should be encouraging both to grow, and they are linked.
The success of e-sports would indicate only online viewership is needed although it appears there are engaged studio audiences for some of these events. I think the trends are showing that it's going to be more important to cater to offsite viewers than onsite spectators and also be more cost-effective for emerging pro sports that don't have significant spectator appeal from the get-go, let alone enough or any paying spectators. I think many disc golf viewers prefer to see more wooded courses or at least fewer wide open holes with OB rope. The video teams have indicated they can handle wooded holes just fine and you don't need that many spectators to make wooded holes look like there are some fans.

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Old 12-02-2019, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
The success of e-sports would indicate only online viewership is needed although it appears there are engaged studio audiences for some of these events. I think the trends are showing that it's going to be more important to cater to offsite viewers than onsite spectators and also be more cost-effective for emerging pro sports that don't have significant spectator appeal from the get-go, let alone enough or any paying spectators. I think many disc golf viewers prefer to see more wooded courses or at least fewer wide open holes with OB rope. The video teams have indicated they can handle wooded holes just fine and you don't need that many spectators to make wooded holes look like there are some fans.
CCDG 2015 Worlds is a fine example of this... especially round 5 for me. 😁
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Old 12-02-2019, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
The success of e-sports would indicate only online viewership is needed although it appears there are engaged studio audiences for some of these events. I think the trends are showing that it's going to be more important to cater to offsite viewers than onsite spectators and also be more cost-effective for emerging pro sports that don't have significant spectator appeal from the get-go, let alone enough or any paying spectators. I think many disc golf viewers prefer to see more wooded courses or at least fewer wide open holes with OB rope. The video teams have indicated they can handle wooded holes just fine and you don't need that many spectators to make wooded holes look like there are some fans.
Yeah I agree with that except in the case that some wooded courses it is hard to have spectators at the course due to how narrow the throwing lanes are. However you do not need fully wooded courses to work, rather you can have more courses that have plants/trees in the right spots not a fully wooded course to make the course very challenging for top pro players. Yes as YouTube and other places are now here to view emerging Pro Sports that do not have a great ability to spectate at the site and make money off the spectators Like Disc Golf or ones that fail to draw in spectators and thus are not on TV it will be more and more you are seeing the events online somewhere.
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Old 12-05-2019, 01:03 AM
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  #86  
Old 12-05-2019, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
I'm not a fan of disc golf on golf courses either, but apparently some people are. They keep holding tournaments there, and players keep showing up.

When lamenting that Pro Worlds isn't held on the best courses, bear in mind the limitations:

First, the criteria. A location doesn't just need great courses. It needs suitable courses---suitable in length and challenge, for top pros---but also to be spectator- and video-friendly, have sufficient lodging and other facilities, and have locals willing to run the event, and raise the money necessary. Each factor whittles down the available locations. Particularly, the latter ones.

Second, the turnover: With a handful of Majors to be bid on each year, and the fact that most places, once they host a Major, don't want to do it again for a decade, and you need a pool of dozens of cities from which to draw. Not all are going to be the best of the best.

Third, Pro Worlds isn't the must lucrative Worlds for someone to host.

I don't know whether Ogden is a great place for Pro Worlds, or not. I don't know this particular disc/ball course, though I still like the idea of combining it with a wooded course. It's certainly a beautiful location. And with all things considered, I'm more appreciative of Utah for hosting, than concerned about the course. And for those who don't care for it, the following year it will be somewhere else.
Just wanted to bring this post from 2018 back around because it's worth reading again.

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Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
I do not think the value of spectators is worth the loss of course quality.
It's deceivingly easy to make that subjective statement when you have no skin in the game.

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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
The success of e-sports would indicate only online viewership is needed although it appears there are engaged studio audiences for some of these events. I think the trends are showing that it's going to be more important to cater to offsite viewers than onsite spectators and also be more cost-effective for emerging pro sports that don't have significant spectator appeal from the get-go, let alone enough or any paying spectators. I think many disc golf viewers prefer to see more wooded courses or at least fewer wide open holes with OB rope. The video teams have indicated they can handle wooded holes just fine and you don't need that many spectators to make wooded holes look like there are some fans.
Ehhhh...ok here's the nuance with e-sports. You can't lose sight of the fact that the only physical characteristics of the games themselves are keyboards, mice, and fast-twitch muscles.

What I mean is that the audience has only digital expectations. We are in a unique spot in disc golf with a foot in both worlds (the other world being traditional physically spectated and "fanned" sports). Without a physical place to hold the competition we are without a sport and culture. Nobody is going to pay to watch Paul McBeth play a disc golf video game, they pay to watch him throw "IRL", to bring back an outdated term, lol.

While it's true that a large % of the fan population, and a growing % of fan money, favors a digital viewing experience - this sport will never (I guess with VR I shouldn't say "never", but...) be a digital sport. The coolest thing is as we become more tech-immersed in our day to day lives it will be a bridge-link between the digital and the analog, and I predict that our popularity as a game and sport will continue to gain interest and traction because of that unique situation.

ALso - eSports have a HUGE in-person spectator following. I've personally been to the LCS arena (here's a link to google image search) and they spent a ton of time and money cultivating the right experience. The entire arena has active lighting, not just the stage, the screens behind the players update you about the game, change colors and show animations when objectives are taken, and there's a massive Dolby Atmos system better than 99% of theaters in the US have pumping lots of game sounds + the broadcaster commentary live in studio.

I won't go on and on...but look up the "League of Legends World Championship" sometime - tens of thousands of spectators, live concerts and original music from A-list celeb musicians (Zedd, Imagine Dragons, etc.), etc.

Your point about cost-effectiveness and being resourceful with digital tools is 100% spot on, I just wanted to point out that even eSports cares deeply about the in-person experience. There are waaay more esports tournaments held at everyone's local event centers than people realize. Even at a local/regional level for a 100% digital competition, humans are still inherently social creatures so we should always push for a better in-person experience alongside the online experience IMO.

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Last edited by JTacoma03; 12-05-2019 at 07:50 PM.
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  #87  
Old 12-05-2019, 10:16 PM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
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Originally Posted by Chains Bailey
I do not think the value of spectators is worth the loss of course quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JTacoma03 View Post
It's deceivingly easy to make that subjective statement when you have no skin in the game.
Not really - it was quite easy and is a strong point without your blessing. I was not addressing the financial aspects or referring to anything else beyond my statement. I already pointed out the difference in live spectators verse online viewership.

I could preface it with - "As a viewer" or something silly like "Since I am not attempting to make any money off of disc golf", but that is all unnecessary.


How about a definitive statement that is not subjective?

Lowering course quality for any event is bad practice and can only reflect negatively overall.

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  #88  
Old 12-05-2019, 10:30 PM
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"Course Quality" is such a loaded, contextual phrase that several points of view can be correct based on applying their specific assessment parameters.

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Old 12-05-2019, 10:42 PM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
"Course Quality" is such a loaded, contextual phrase that several points of view can be correct based on applying their specific assessment parameters.
How would you word it, if the majority is of the opinion that changing from Course style A to Course style B is lowering the course quality?

Honestly curious.

If disregarding the majority, then maybe it would have to be approached by certain demographics like:

Viewers
Players
Videographers
Organizers

Not sure to be honest, but I do know that catering to hundreds, where that catering is considered a negative by tens of thousands, is a poor decision.

The only time I could understand the above scenario is if the players themselves are being catered to over (Insert any other interested party).
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  #90  
Old 12-05-2019, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
How would you word it, if the majority is of the opinion that changing from Course style A to Course style B is lowering the course quality?

Honestly curious.

If disregarding the majority, then maybe it would have to be approached by certain demographics like:

Viewers
Players
Videographers
Organizers

Not sure to be honest, but I do know that catering to hundreds, where that catering is considered a negative by tens of thousands, is a poor decision.

The only time I could understand the above scenario is if the players themselves are being catered to over (Insert any other interested party).
I'm saying that Course Quality is usually compromised simply by the nature of the permanent or temp courses that need to be used by some of the teams who stepped up and were selected to host the tour events. Better quality from a viewer standpoint is farther down the list with internet access/media needs coming next and then doing the best they can with the layout suitable for the players. Viewers essentially get what results from those compromises. We also know that perhaps more viewers prefer to watch more wooded courses than open with OB rope. But the organizers won't play a short wooded course perhaps with worse internet access versus setting up a much longer temp course. The players might see the wooded course as poorer quality and their needs plus media needs rise above viewer preference for quality.

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