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#401
12-19-2010, 09:08 AM
 peabody Double Eagle Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Western Kentucky Years Playing: 16.8 Courses Played: 54 Posts: 1,275 Niced 41 Times in 22 Posts

Does More Spin = more distance?
#402
12-19-2010, 09:37 AM
 LoPan12 Double Eagle Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Raleigh, NC Years Playing: 9.7 Courses Played: 35 Throwing Style: RHBH Posts: 1,930 Niced 9 Times in 4 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ArcheType Now I'm no aerodynamics expert
Neither am I. I do however have a degree that involved a lot of fluid dynamics. And before you ask the question, air is a fluid. And ArcheType, you're sort of right. I'll try to make this as understandable as I can....but this will get REAL sciencey, so bear with me please, or feel free to just skip this post entirely. Or better yet, go hit the end. After finishing up, I realized the first couple paragraphs aren't directly about "Why do I get more glide as it beats in"

Since we're talking about glide here, we'll treat the disc, as a whole, like a wing, or airfoil, as seen here.

Okay. When the disc flies through the air, you get a distinct seperation of air flow. Now consider two particles that get split up be the disc, one goes on top, one goes on the bottom. They will meet up again, behind the disc, so, because the top one has to travel farther, it is going faster. As speed increases, pressure decreases. You are left with a lower pressure area above the disc, and a higher pressure area below the disc. This phenomenon is called "LIFT" and for a given speed, will overcome the weight of the disc, and push it up. And what about that empty space under the disc? Well in that space, you get all sorts of forces, and I'm not totally sure what the net effect is...so...I'm not even gonna try.
When you now consider the rotation, think about relative speeds. For a RHBH, the left edge of the disc is moving faster than the right edge. So, due to the higher speed, the left edge will create MORE LIFT than the right side. This is shown in Fig. A below. The blue line is the amount of lift exterted on the disc. This is where you get the effect of flip, or HSS. The cant of the the disc then causes the overall lift force to steer the disc to the right.

AH! So why don't all my discs keep going right?
Well...you've got a rotating mass. This causes gyroscopic forces having to do with angular momentum and pitch and roll and whatnot. In a nutshell, the rotating mass of the disc causes a sum of forces call gyroscopic procession. This is what causes LSS, same as HSS, just the opposite direction. Fig. B shows the this force on the disc.
When you first release the disc, it has the most spin it ever will in that flight, and the assymetrical lift forces will outweigh precessional roll. But as the disc slows down, the lift forces aren't as large, and the disc rolls to the left.

It slows down, because of DRAG! Drag is a force that opposes your disc. The friction between the disc and air rob energy and the spin reduces, and the forward speed declines! BTW, a driver has less drag than a putter, due to putters having a blunt edge. So a driver's flight is therefore less lift-driven, and more ballistic. But don't think about that for now.

NOW, those of you still reading (god-bless you) are asking, "Okay, neat...what's this s#\$t have to do with beating in and more glide?"
Well, turbulence is our friend here. A turbulent boundary layer on the surfaces of the disc eventually result in less drag! There's more fluid dynamics involved here, but trust me when I say, you end up with less drag. This is why golf balls are dimpled, but the reasons are a bit different for a sphere.
So, as you beat in a disc, it gets all these micro abrasions, that cause little eddies and vortexes that add up to turbulent, chaotic flow. In some cases, while this turbulence increases surface friction drag, the overall effect is a reduction in drag forces. This has to do with boundary layers, seperation points, and changes in pressure fields. But I'm damned tired.
The beating in reduces drag (to a point, then you start to get screwed again) allowing a disc to maintain the various lift forces for longer, lettings it go longer before fading, letting it glide longer.
Yeah. I think. Good Night.

 Niced: (2)
#403
12-19-2010, 09:39 AM
 LoPan12 Double Eagle Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Raleigh, NC Years Playing: 9.7 Courses Played: 35 Throwing Style: RHBH Posts: 1,930 Niced 9 Times in 4 Posts

^^^ I spent like an hour trying to write that...so someone better read it and understand what I'm trying to say.

 Niced: (2)
#404
12-19-2010, 09:42 AM
 jtbingster * Ace Member * Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Tampa, FL Years Playing: 9.7 Courses Played: 5 Posts: 2,019 Niced 1 Time in 1 Post
Aviar or Wizard?

If I might get one of each, which would be the better one for driving, and which would be better for just putting?
#405
12-19-2010, 09:53 AM
 Triflusal * Ace Member * Join Date: Oct 2010 Years Playing: 9.6 Courses Played: 11 Throwing Style: LHBH Posts: 2,713 Niced 0 Times in 0 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by jtbingster If I might get one of each, which would be the better one for driving, and which would be better for just putting?
mostly personal preference, but alot of people on here like the wizard for driving (I use a KC aviar for driving)
#406
12-19-2010, 09:58 AM
 thrembo * Ace Member * Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Floriduh Years Playing: 44.7 Courses Played: 193 Throwing Style: RHBH Posts: 3,595 Niced 531 Times in 261 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by peabody Does More Spin = more distance?
Most definately more spin=more distance!
#407
12-19-2010, 09:59 AM
 cfair * Ace Member * Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Bowling Green Ohio Courses Played: 3 Posts: 2,636 Niced 43 Times in 25 Posts

LoPan, awesome write up. I've actually been wondering how the flow over the disc works. For general purposes but also for counter throwing in wind, because its windy where I am. Now I'm curious about the net effect and how dome or no dome effects the disc underneath (because I get how dome effects the top of the disc now.

Makes sense as to why the comet does all of the things it can. Most have big dome and are a "large diameter" disc causing the air over the top to move faster and respond to the discs spin and snap in certain ways.

AWESOME Professor LoPAN!
#408
12-19-2010, 10:03 AM
 cfair * Ace Member * Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Bowling Green Ohio Courses Played: 3 Posts: 2,636 Niced 43 Times in 25 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by thrembo Most definately more spin=more distance!
wrong. Spin aids more distance. Distance is spin/snap+armspeed/velocity+nose angle+height. Spin stabilizes the disc so that it can go as far as possible before hyzering out.

Try throwing a comet flat with a ton of snap but not a lot of arm speed. It will do a slow turn forward for about 180'.
#409
12-19-2010, 10:04 AM
 thrembo * Ace Member * Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Floriduh Years Playing: 44.7 Courses Played: 193 Throwing Style: RHBH Posts: 3,595 Niced 531 Times in 261 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by LoPan12 ^^^ I spent like an hour trying to write that...so someone better read it and understand what I'm trying to say.

#410
12-19-2010, 10:08 AM
 LoPan12 Double Eagle Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Raleigh, NC Years Playing: 9.7 Courses Played: 35 Throwing Style: RHBH Posts: 1,930 Niced 9 Times in 4 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by thrembo Read, understood, and appreciated!
Hooray! For everyone else:
What I meant to say is
"It's f#\$kin' MAGIC."
Which, I will assure you, many an engineer will fall back on as an explanation. Or rather, not an explanation

...damn I'm a dork....