#1  
Old 03-27-2018, 01:37 PM
Lazerface Lazerface is offline
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: St. Louis, MO
Courses Played: 5
Posts: 834
Niced 497 Times in 238 Posts
Default TD requirement for printed material?

I have never ran an event, but am aware there are guidelines TDs must follow outlined in the competition manual. Is there anything that says a TD must hand out some sort of player guide, caddy book, etc when there are specific OB rules in place that are not documented on a sign or anywhere else? Is announcing the OB rules at the players meeting enough?

CASE: B-Tier this past weekend has a handful of holes on one course that have long grass areas that typically play as OB (regular OB rules). The grass was not necessarily as long as it typically is, but it is brown as opposed to green and very obvious standing on the tee, but they did not spray paint a line, so decided not to play them as traditional OB (which really ruins the course, but OK). Per the TD as of this year they are now allowed to do a distance only penalty for OB areas, so per his instruction players who landed in the long grass area were to place the disc where it was last in bounds (per normal OB rules), but without the stroke penalty.

One hole with long grass (18) actually has a roped area that is inside the long grass creating an island inside an island if you will. On that hole, we were told to play it where it lies, and DO take a stroke penalty (because the rope clearly marks an OB line).

OK, that's not too complicated...... On hole 16 there are two long grass areas on each side of the fairway. They are both brown and create a fairway of green grass between them. There is no reason to think that these two areas would be played differently. My card and all the open cards we saw, were playing as instructed - change the lie per regular OB rules but no penalty. Then we walk by an AM card and the guy says he called the TD and was gold the "left side" was "play where you land" no penalty, but the right side was the other rule "change lie, no penalty". Nobody on our card or any other person playing recalls this being said at the meeting. Apparently, it was decided we would have 3 different rules for the long grass on the course, none of which is reflected on tee signs or any material handed out to the player.

When we get back to tournament central the chaos begins. The main player who was arguing and the TD both handled it poorly (yelling, vulgar, etc), but again, ONLY the TD remembers clarifying this rule that applied only to the left side of hole 16 during the players meeting, not a single competitor I spoke to could verify this. However, 2 poor arguments were put forth by the TD 1) We have played that area that way for years now - that obviously means nothing for anyone not familiar with the course and 2) That grass is actually cut the same length as the fairway - even if that's true, that area is dark brown and it's the exact same type of grass in all other long grass areas, all of which are pretty short/matted down this time of year. But they are all brown, and a totally different type of grass (prairie type stuff) than the actual course. No person would ever assume it's any different than the other areas.

So, after much deliberation and realizing that so many players played it "wrong" the TD decides to negate the whole completely and throw out that score from each players total. All things considered, I think that was the correct call, but I was not playing for much. However, this negation actually changed the MPO top two players from being tied, to the the winner taking it down by one. Yea, 2nd place MPO guy was not happy, but kept his cool. He deserves some credit for that.


As far as the provisionals go - the TD did say, "why didn't you throw a provisional" and I tried to calmly explain to him that there would be no reason for anyone unfamiliar with the course to think that the exact grass on one side of the fairway played different from the other side. I referenced his poor arguments about what they "have done before" and the "different length". IT's a brown island for fack sake.

So, given that story, does the PDGA require materials be handed out or some other sort of reference (defined on tee sign) for rules that are outside of normal OB like sidewalks/roads, water, and clearly marked artificial OB? Even the single variance on hole 18 with the roped area inside of the long grass area was difficult for my card to remember. I told them what I recalled, but we had a player throw a provisional just in case.
Sponsored Links
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-27-2018, 01:55 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Years Playing: 22.1
Courses Played: 151
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 7,941
Niced 3,925 Times in 1,618 Posts
Default

There is no specific requirement that course rules and special conditions be distributed in writing. But it's a very good idea to have it documented somewhere. And also a very good practice to be sure that special areas, be they OB, hazard, or relief areas, are clearly demarcated so there is no question what is in/out or when rules apply and when they don't.

This TD sounds lazy and ill-prepared. But unfortunately, he didn't fail to do anything he's required to do if he went over the rules at the players' meeting (even if he did so poorly or unclearly).

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-27-2018, 02:15 PM
Lazerface Lazerface is offline
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: St. Louis, MO
Courses Played: 5
Posts: 834
Niced 497 Times in 238 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
There is no specific requirement that course rules and special conditions be distributed in writing. But it's a very good idea to have it documented somewhere. And also a very good practice to be sure that special areas, be they OB, hazard, or relief areas, are clearly demarcated so there is no question what is in/out or when rules apply and when they don't.

This TD sounds lazy and ill-prepared. But unfortunately, he didn't fail to do anything he's required to do if he went over the rules at the players' meeting (even if he did so poorly or unclearly).
I assumed this would be the response, but I think we are getting to a point where this should be required at least for A Tier and above. This was a B Tier. I'm like 90% sure he made no mention of the left side of 16 as I describe and probably did not think to because it's how they usually play it.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-27-2018, 02:30 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Years Playing: 22.1
Courses Played: 151
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 7,941
Niced 3,925 Times in 1,618 Posts
Default

I should clarify that A-tiers, NTs, and Majors do have higher standards for those sorts of things, typically communicated directly to the TDs during the application process (which is more than just signing the sanctioning agreement and paying the fee). I've yet to play an event of that level that didn't have everything spelled out clearly in writing as well as clearly marked on the course, and I don't think that's entirely an accident.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-27-2018, 03:21 PM
Cgkdisc's Avatar
Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Twin Cities
Years Playing: 30.8
Courses Played: 692
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 12,337
Niced 1,717 Times in 785 Posts
Default

Here are some "Best Practices" statements from the How to Plan a PDGA Event and How to Run a PDGA Event documents on the PDGA site:

"Quality scorecards list the hole lengths for each course layout to be played, have enough room for 5 players, feature tournament name, host club and sponsor logos across the top, course rules especially OB, TD contact information, and even have a course map on the back."

At Player Meeting or before
"You can go over hole-specific rules briefly, or better yet, have a caddy book or rules sheet that explains everything for you."

"Players need proper printed information, proper explanations at player meetings and proper signage where needed on the courses."
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-27-2018, 04:14 PM
jeverett's Avatar
jeverett jeverett is online now
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Eugene, OR
Years Playing: 10.6
Courses Played: 27
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 1,201
Niced 48 Times in 32 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Here are some "Best Practices" statements from the How to Plan a PDGA Event and How to Run a PDGA Event documents on the PDGA site:

"Quality scorecards list the hole lengths for each course layout to be played, have enough room for 5 players, feature tournament name, host club and sponsor logos across the top, course rules especially OB, TD contact information, and even have a course map on the back."

At Player Meeting or before
"You can go over hole-specific rules briefly, or better yet, have a caddy book or rules sheet that explains everything for you."

"Players need proper printed information, proper explanations at player meetings and proper signage where needed on the courses."
Just to expand on this topic a little, one of the things about the PDGA sanctioning agreement that has always irked me is that it does not allow for important things like players' guides or maps to come out of entry fees. Literally everything in the 'best practices' guide are supposed to be donated or paid for via sponsorships.

For reference, here is the exact language in the tour standards:

Net Entry Fees = Gross Entry Fees minus the pass-through fees ONLY. Pass through Fees are: PDGA Per-Player Fee, Greens Fee, Regional or Series Fee only, NOT expenses.

Source: https://www.pdga.com/files/2018_tour_standards.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-27-2018, 04:21 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Years Playing: 22.1
Courses Played: 151
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 7,941
Niced 3,925 Times in 1,618 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeverett View Post
Just to expand on this topic a little, one of the things about the PDGA sanctioning agreement that has always irked me is that it does not allow for important things like players' guides or maps to come out of entry fees. Literally everything in the 'best practices' guide are supposed to be donated or paid for via sponsorships.

For reference, here is the exact language in the tour standards:

Net Entry Fees = Gross Entry Fees minus the pass-through fees ONLY. Pass through Fees are: PDGA Per-Player Fee, Greens Fee, Regional or Series Fee only, NOT expenses.

Source: https://www.pdga.com/files/2018_tour_standards.pdf
Assign a value to your caddy notes/book. Include it in the value of the player pack. Expense covered.

This is why I try to go a bit above and beyond a single sheet list. Make it a book you have to pay to bind and it has value.

Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-27-2018, 04:27 PM
jeverett's Avatar
jeverett jeverett is online now
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Eugene, OR
Years Playing: 10.6
Courses Played: 27
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 1,201
Niced 48 Times in 32 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Assign a value to your caddy notes/book. Include it in the value of the player pack. Expense covered.

This is why I try to go a bit above and beyond a single sheet list. Make it a book you have to pay to bind and it has value.
That's an interesting work-around, although it wouldn't help with on-the-course event expenses (e.g. signage, OB line marking, etc.). In the end, though, I don't think tournament expenses *should* be work-arounds. If the PDGA really cares about the quality of sanctioned events, then the specific expenses they advocate for in their best practices guide really need to be deductable expenses. :P

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-27-2018, 04:39 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Years Playing: 22.1
Courses Played: 151
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 7,941
Niced 3,925 Times in 1,618 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeverett View Post
That's an interesting work-around, although it wouldn't help with on-the-course event expenses (e.g. signage, OB line marking, etc.). In the end, though, I don't think tournament expenses *should* be work-arounds. If the PDGA really cares about the quality of sanctioned events, then the specific expenses they advocate for in their best practices guide really need to be deductable expenses. :P
I agree 100%.

The snag is how to prevent abuse of expensing such things. Generally speaking, the PDGA doesn't ask for itemization of the budget outside of their biggest events (Majors/NTs). So there'd have to be requirements about financial record-keeping above and beyond what exists now. TDs are obligated to provide financials when asked, but it is so rare for the local B & C tier events I doubt there are many TDs who keep receipts or even crunch their numbers that closely. So long as the payouts meet requirements and fees get paid, everyone is pretty lax on the details.
Reply With Quote
 

  #10  
Old 03-27-2018, 06:05 PM
Cgkdisc's Avatar
Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Twin Cities
Years Playing: 30.8
Courses Played: 692
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 12,337
Niced 1,717 Times in 785 Posts
Default

Essentially, the tournament finance policies were initially written by pros in the 70s and 80s. Those of us who later got involved in tournament finances at the PDGA level have had a challenge tweaking these traditions partly because clubs and TDs, who for a long time have been mostly pros, have been running PDGA events with free choice (they're not PDGA employees). Amateurs have largely been the source of funds covering all tournament expenses except for fees which pros have at least been paying. I'd like to see a fee or percentage from pro entries going toward expenses putting their contribution roughly on the level of what Ams have been contributing through their prize value differential for the past 25+ years.

Niced: (3)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
3D printed discs? Monkeypaws Discs 27 02-16-2017 11:11 PM
Requirement to place marker niels2k Rules Questions & Discussion 3 04-09-2014 07:50 AM
30CM requirement removed? Lawndart Jedi Rules Questions & Discussion 4 03-07-2013 02:09 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.