#1901  
Old 07-19-2017, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BogeyNoMore View Post
Not to speak for dreadlock, but...

While the two of you agree about tee signs and general maintenance, I think the reason he disagrees with you is that fundamentally, the two of you seem to value amenities on completely different levels:
I get it...but my point is, you can't casually dismiss non-existent tees and signage when you are considering the top of the top courses and I think that plays itself out when you see what courses are in the top 25. That being said, Ozark (when groomed) is an experience worth having for any DGer.
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  #1902  
Old 07-19-2017, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Qikly View Post
I played Harmony Bends a few weeks ago and found it to be everything one would hope and more. It was firmly the best course I've ever played, and that is saying quite a lot. Got a stack of reviews to write piling up, but I'll get to it.
Looking forward to reading your review.
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  #1903  
Old 07-19-2017, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by odysseus81 View Post
That being said, Ozark (when groomed) is an experience worth having for any DGer.
Which is why I was so pissed. I soooo wanted to play those courses... but the place was a freakin' jungle. I genuinely think the guy was trying to be accommodating when he told me the "grass is really long, but it's playable," but honestly, he just should have turned me away.

As a local, can you ballpark about how many times a year you think they get that place under control?
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  #1904  
Old 07-19-2017, 08:28 PM
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Which is why I was so pissed. I soooo wanted to play those courses... but the place was a freakin' jungle. I genuinely think the guy was trying to be accommodating when he told me the "grass is really long, but it's playable," but honestly, he just should have turned me away.

As a local, can you ballpark about how many times a year you think they get that place under control?
I really don't know that it is much more than when Dave Mac owned it. Back then it was basically once in the spring and once in the fall. The guy wants to monetize the property but from what I can tell, really hasn't put much into it.
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  #1905  
Old 07-20-2017, 05:40 AM
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dreadlock86 dreadlock86 is offline
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I tried to play the courses at Ozark the day before I played Harmony Bends.... they were completely overgrown and not playable... played 3 holes and realized it was sheer futility...
man... that really sucks.


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Originally Posted by BogeyNoMore View Post
The way I see it, they should honestly be listed as temp courses.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BogeyNoMore View Post
Not to speak for dreadlock, but...

While the two of you agree about tee signs and general maintenance, I think the reason he disagrees with you is that fundamentally, the two of you seem to value amenities on completely different levels:
pretty much


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Originally Posted by odysseus81 View Post
I don't really understand what you are disagreeing with about my statement...I specifically said it was a great experience but when amenities factor in it can't hold a candle to the top courses. One of the things that establishes something as a top course is amenities. They are top because they generally execute most all elements of the course well. You can easily dismiss teepads and signage, but to most, those aren't even amenities...those are assumed. That isn't even getting into the amenities like benches and trashcans and restrooms on site, etc. I shouldn't have to play in a tournament to keep from getting lost on a course if it is a top course. I have played Ozark Mountain at least 5 times and it is incredibly fun and challenging...plus really well designed, but unfortunately, that will never be enough to be a top 25 course.
red highlight: i think this is fundamentally untrue in that it's not axiomatic. it could coincidentally be accurate at any given time but it's not like it must be true. at this point in DG, most of what are considered the best courses have excellent amenities. this wasn't always the case and it's possible but not likely that it could not be the case in the future. imagine a hypothetical unmarked course on some magical perfect property that has the best 18 holes ever designed in DG. it would still be the best course ever without signs or concrete tees.

also, can we agree that "no teepads" is a logical impossibility. wherever you are supposed to tee from, whatever surface that might be, it's a teepad. i have no problem with natural tees so long as they are even and safe. and from the number of pro players i see teeing off from the side of rubber pads, i'm not alone. concrete does not equal better.



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Originally Posted by odysseus81 View Post
I get it...but my point is, you can't casually dismiss non-existent tees and signage when you are considering the top of the top courses and I think that plays itself out when you see what courses are in the top 25. That being said, Ozark (when groomed) is an experience worth having for any DGer.
why not? there are plenty of people reviewing courses here that casually dismiss course design and public safety, two factors that are waaaay more important to a good course, imo. there are probably just as many people here whose course ratings are in direct variation with the number of trees in each fairway; the more challenging the better, whether the design is fair or not.

we are blessed that we now have courses that have it all (and imo, Houck is one of the major driving forces in that trend). but look at the top 25; how many of those courses really deserve to be there? BRP, Visionquest, Lake Clairborne, Phantom Falls, and even Flip and Idlewild... these courses are arguably more about reputation, fluff and lace, and scenic views than the best disc golf modern course design has to offer.

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  #1906  
Old 07-20-2017, 10:23 AM
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I totally get your point of view. To me, course design should always be the most important factor when rating a course, but the "experience"--which I guess I would define loosely as fun-factor--weighs in at 2nd place. Amenities play a huge role in determining the fun-factor. I enjoyed the discussion and totally respect your point of view. While certainly, it is possible that a magical course on the perfect property with little to no amenities could come around and crack the top 10, my guess is, there will always be people that care enough about the "extras" that lower reviews will come in and drive it down. I will say that of the top 10 courses I have played, I thought Flip was the least deserving on that list. That isn't to say I didn't really enjoy it, but it wasn't even my favorite Ludington area course. It really is the great thing about DG though, and the reason we take our annual road trip. Every DG course is completely unique and you never know what you are going to get. We are heading to the Pine, CO area this fall and I can't wait to try those out. Never played legit mountain courses before
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  #1907  
Old 07-20-2017, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by odysseus81 View Post
I'll be playing Harmony Bends this weekend and review #18 for the course will follow quickly behind.
Enjoy! Harmony Bends is top-tier Houck.
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  #1908  
Old 07-21-2017, 04:07 AM
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dreadlock86 dreadlock86 is offline
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Originally Posted by odysseus81 View Post
I totally get your point of view. To me, course design should always be the most important factor when rating a course, but the "experience"--which I guess I would define loosely as fun-factor--weighs in at 2nd place. Amenities play a huge role in determining the fun-factor. I enjoyed the discussion and totally respect your point of view. While certainly, it is possible that a magical course on the perfect property with little to no amenities could come around and crack the top 10, my guess is, there will always be people that care enough about the "extras" that lower reviews will come in and drive it down. I will say that of the top 10 courses I have played, I thought Flip was the least deserving on that list. That isn't to say I didn't really enjoy it, but it wasn't even my favorite Ludington area course. It really is the great thing about DG though, and the reason we take our annual road trip. Every DG course is completely unique and you never know what you are going to get. We are heading to the Pine, CO area this fall and I can't wait to try those out. Never played legit mountain courses before

i totally get all that too. and that is certainly the perspective for a large number of players and reviewers. it's not the case for me and i can't help but think about how high the fun factor has been for me at courses that had very poor amenities but had other intangibles. a lot of the time i joined a local or a group of them and didn't have to worry about navigation or walk up blind fairways to know where the basket was. Bailey in CO is a great example (btw, you should make sure you get a chance to play there on your trip!) and a lot of other CO mountain courses now that i think of it, ghost town and golden eagle (formerly known as buckhorn). also the courses in Rochester, NY where i first started playing. before Am worlds was there a few years back the signage and tees were awful at most of those courses (much better now). Ellison Park was tons of fun, $hit tees and no signs, but navigation was mostly obvious.

a big issue is the vastly different experience a local and a traveler will have at a course. and luck plays a factor too: were there locals at the course the day you played to help you out or were you totally on your own? locals love multiple basket positions but they can be a huge pain for a traveler. ditto blind baskets.


anyway, have fun at Harmony Bends. all this nonsense is irrelevant there, that course has it all.
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  #1909  
Old 07-21-2017, 09:38 AM
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BogeyNoMore BogeyNoMore is offline
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a big issue is the vastly different experience a local and a traveler will have at a course. and luck plays a factor too: were there locals at the course the day you played to help you out or were you totally on your own? locals love multiple basket positions but they can be a huge pain for a traveler. ditto blind baskets.
This is so true. Many players have a hard time seeing their local courses through the eyes of a traveler. Try to recall your very first time at that course (even then, there's a decent chance you were with a friend who'd played it before):

What was it like to get around from hole to hole?
How comfortable were you throwing your tee shot to a basket you couldn't see with a brush lined fairway?
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  #1910  
Old 07-21-2017, 07:46 PM
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highbridge gold takes a hit. someone was bitter

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