#61  
Old 01-11-2019, 02:48 PM
Dingus Dingus is offline
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Originally Posted by Twmccoy View Post
I think the term "up to speed" does apply for pretty much any disc, especially fast, wide rimmed drivers. I think up to speed basically refers to the amount of arm you need to get a disc to fly flat for any length of time. Releasing on a big anny and having the disc do a short, exaggerated S curve doesn't count either, since you're essentially still not flattening it out.

Also, I agree that some discs won't fly "more properly" at 450' vs 400'. The Destroyer could be an exception to that though. At 400' a Destroyer may have some high speed turn, but possibly not. At 450' you're definitely flexing it out somewhat.
So for this discussion we were talking about disc speed independent of stability. Under your analysis a gator would require a very fast cruising speed. In fact I would say under your analysis a gator would need to be traveling faster than a nuke for cruising speed. That is the problem with introducing stability into this speed discussion.

I also don’t agree that at 450’ of power you would “definitively be flexing” it. Some people achieve disc speed by torquing it out there, introducing OAT or reducing spin. But for the purest form, the spin should increase with the disc speed stabilizing the flight and making the turn similar between 400’ and 450’.
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  #62  
Old 01-11-2019, 03:41 PM
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BENFTS BENFTS is offline
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Originally Posted by Mocheez View Post
There is more to it than that. I can throw a Judge farther than I can throw a Firebird. The drag coefficient of a Firebird is way less than a Judge.
No not really.....Just because you can throw a Judge further doesn't mean the laws of physics are wrong and you're right.

I'll bet any amount of cash you can't throw a putter 8' off the ground half as far as you can throw a Firebird the same way....

Last edited by BENFTS; 01-11-2019 at 03:46 PM.
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  #63  
Old 01-11-2019, 04:04 PM
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aphilso1 aphilso1 is offline
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The perception that speed/rim width is synonymous with requisite power is a gross simplification. Personally I’ve found the function is really more like Speed + Turn + Fade = the power needed for the disc to behave properly. As an example, I bag both Felons and Hatchets in the speed 9 range, but the power required to get them to fly as designed is very different. Felons require almost “distance driver power” to get them to fly well for me, whereas I can basically get a Hatchet to fly how I want with a throw more akin to how I’d toss a midrange. That doesn’t make sense if you only think of the power requirement as a directly linear relationship to rim width and speed, but does make sense if you go back to the Speed + Turn + Fade formula. So, now let’s compare that same Felon and Hatchet to a fairly neutral distance driver and midrange in my bag:

Trespass: 12/_/-0.5/3 = 14.5
Felon: 9/_/0.5/4 = 13.5
Hatchet: 9/_/-2/1 = 8
Emac Truth: 5/_/0/2 = 7

As expected when you include turn and fade in the formula, Trespasses (14.5) and Felons (13.5) are nearly equally power hungry. Same thing with Hatchets (8) and Emacs (7).

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Old 01-11-2019, 04:13 PM
Mocheez Mocheez is offline
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Originally Posted by BENFTS View Post
No not really.....Just because you can throw a Judge further doesn't mean the laws of physics are wrong and you're right.

I'll bet any amount of cash you can't throw a putter 8' off the ground half as far as you can throw a Firebird the same way....
I never said the laws of physics are wrong. I am saying there are more physics that factor into the flight of the disc beyond the drag coefficient.

And I wouldn't take that bet because a Judge generates a lot more lift than a Firebird. I would have to reduce velocity in order to keep the Judge from lifting above 8 feet.

Last edited by Mocheez; 01-11-2019 at 04:15 PM.
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  #65  
Old 01-11-2019, 04:30 PM
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BENFTS BENFTS is offline
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Originally Posted by Mocheez View Post
I never said the laws of physics are wrong. I am saying there are more physics that factor into the flight of the disc beyond the drag coefficient.

And I wouldn't take that bet because a Judge generates a lot more lift than a Firebird. I would have to reduce velocity in order to keep the Judge from lifting above 8 feet.
And I'm calling out the point you tried to make as the trash example it is. The logic of "I can do it so he must be wrong" is hilarious. The shape of the Firebird wing certainly generates more lift than that of a Judge so the above point is trash as well.

You don't need to reduce velocity on your Judge, you just need to manage your release angle more effectively. Hit the field and shoot some video of that Judge going further than the Firebird....I'd love to see it.
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:50 PM
Mocheez Mocheez is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BENFTS View Post
And I'm calling out the point you tried to make as the trash example it is. The logic of "I can do it so he must be wrong" is hilarious. The shape of the Firebird wing certainly generates more lift than that of a Judge so the above point is trash as well.

You don't need to reduce velocity on your Judge, you just need to manage your release angle more effectively. Hit the field and shoot some video of that Judge going further than the Firebird....I'd love to see it.
I will pass on making videos. Maybe a better example would be a beat firebird vs. a fresh firebird. Which would go farther? Drag coeffiecient would be the same or maybe slightly less for the fresh firebird. But a beat firebird would have a little more turn/glide and fly farther.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:33 PM
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BENFTS BENFTS is offline
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Originally Posted by Mocheez View Post
I will pass on making videos. Maybe a better example would be a beat firebird vs. a fresh firebird. Which would go farther? Drag coeffiecient would be the same or maybe slightly less for the fresh firebird. But a beat firebird would have a little more turn/glide and fly farther.
Over the course of beating in a disc the wing shape changes and can potentially reduced the DC of the seasoned disc. The flashing on the bottom of the wing is removed overtime from grinding on the ground and the wing bent downwards from multiple impacts with trees and earth. While a new Firebird might appear to have a lower DC the reality may be that the seasoned Firebird does. Removing the flashing at the bottom of the wing (the case with a beat Firebird) will actually reduce the DC and allow the disc to fly further with the same amount of energy imparted into the throw.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:46 PM
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mcodyclapp mcodyclapp is offline
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Originally Posted by BENFTS View Post
Over the course of beating in a disc the wing shape changes and can potentially reduced the DC of the seasoned disc. The flashing on the bottom of the wing is removed overtime from grinding on the ground and the wing bent downwards from multiple impacts with trees and earth. While a new Firebird might appear to have a lower DC the reality may be that the seasoned Firebird does. Removing the flashing at the bottom of the wing (the case with a beat Firebird) will actually reduce the DC and allow the disc to fly further with the same amount of energy imparted into the throw.
Blunting the rim from impacts and replacing a relatively smooth bottom wing with one that has imperfections from hitting the ground/trees/rocks/etc will certainly not improve the drag coefficient.

What is your logic there?

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Old 01-11-2019, 06:09 PM
jjmiller jjmiller is offline
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Originally Posted by Mocheez View Post
And I wouldn't take that bet because a Judge generates a lot more lift than a Firebird. I would have to reduce velocity in order to keep the Judge from lifting above 8 feet.

Do you believe that a disc generates lift great enough to overcome its weight? Not talking air bounces from wind getting under it. In absolute zero wind, I'd bet money that a disc never rises unless thrown upwards.

Just as a "rising fastball" is a myth in that a spinning baseball can slow its descent, but a human cannot generate enough spin/velocity to overcome the weight of the ball and make it actually "rise" in its flight.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mcodyclapp View Post
Blunting the rim from impacts and replacing a relatively smooth bottom wing with one that has imperfections from hitting the ground/trees/rocks/etc will certainly not improve the drag coefficient.
Then why do golf balls have dimples?
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  #70  
Old 01-11-2019, 10:23 PM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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Originally Posted by BENFTS View Post
I'll bet any amount of cash you can't throw a putter 8' off the ground half as far as you can throw a Firebird the same way....
I'll take that bet.

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