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View Poll Results: Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open?
A par 2 where 38% of throws are errors, and 1% of throws are hero throws. 6 25.00%
A par 3 where 24% of throws are errors, and 33% of throws are hero throws. 16 66.67%
A par 4 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 23% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes. 0 0%
A par 6 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 62% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
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  #3461  
Old 01-13-2019, 06:58 AM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Two come to mind. They are holes that play well, are cool and fun to play, and we were arguing about the par to begin with. The best data we had was the open division and, after seeing their scores over a few years, I relented to setting the higher par. I still whine about it, and am surprised that the holes score as high as they do. If I was sole owner, I might have left them as originally set.

But that's being fairly casual about par because, as I said, we're not hosting elite-level events or a lot of 1000-rated players. For the past few years we haven't held singles tournaments, so it matters even less.
Since it is only a couple would you mind giving a physical description of the holes? (distance/elevation/forced layups/tightness)
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  #3462  
Old 01-13-2019, 07:53 AM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
Since it is only a couple would you mind giving a physical description of the holes? (distance/elevation/forced layups/tightness)
Diamond 6

629', double dogleg, gentle elevation gain (mostly off the tee, and approaching the green)
Fairway about 25' wide for the first 150', then maybe 40' the rest of the way.
Lined by dense woods.

Drive to landing area, gentle dogleg right, throw to landing area, gentle dogleg left, throw slightly uphill to basket, guarded by 2 small trees, about 25' short and to either side of a straight path so you can't safely hyzer in. In the middle of the second segment is a tree, too far to hit with a drive, but it offers two narrower windows and forces you to decide which to take on your second shot.

I argued that all you have to do is restrain yourself, throw 240' straight and hit the mark, 200' straight, 200' straight, and drop it in. Add a little for the elevation. But it's reasonable; even I've done it before.

But the temptation's there to get around the corner off the tee, and to get around the corner for a second shot, and nail that elusive "3". Which is beyond my ability, but others do manage from time to time.

But over several years of tournaments, the open division never averaged better than 4.6. And it wasn't a bunch of 7s and 8s and OB that inflated that average; it was equal or slightly more 5s than 4s.

Steve would attribute it to errors. But it seems that there's just enough trouble along the way to accumulate on a long hole, or to cause players to be extremely cautious, because if they miss the woods are dense enough to cost a stroke or two.

I called it a "tough 4", yielding a few birdies and lots of bogeys. We changed it to a 5.

Garnet 15

490'
Dogleg right, tee shot slightly uphill, big elevation from landing zone to basket.

The drive is across a pond, 210-240' to clear water (the shorter distance means a longer second throw), with the shore rising 5-10' to the ideal landing area. Which is around the corner, to the right. Cut it too tight, and there are tall trees and an extension of the pond. Cut it too left, there are dense woods. But there's a better chance for a 3 if you get around the corner, and keep it in the fairway; if you just drive straight, you can land safe but leave a big throw for the next one.

The second leg is up a steep hill, with dense woods on either side. In the center of this fairway are two tall trees, in a line along the line of play and about 60' apart, which force you to choose a side or, sometimes, to slalom between them. Basket's on the slope; rollaways aren't a big concern but if you don't quite reach it, it's a steep uphill putt.

It started as a "Tough 3". An unbirdieable 3, which I'm comfortable with. Good drive, good upshot, putt. Except that the 3s were, apparently, tougher than I thought.

*

Now, I suspect that if we had an event where the open division averaged close to 1000 rating, or we had enough high-rated players to select out a significant group that averaged 1000, they'd beat those numbers. We've had some, but not enough. So don't really have a reason to set par accurately for them, nor results to judge whether we did. And, like many designers, we haven't been around them enough to really know what to expect.

I'll also footnote that one of the design philosophies I've quoted to visitors is, "We like tempting people to do something foolish". Which these holes demonstrate.

Steve is defining errors as something like throws that cost a stroke. I understand that. I see the line as much fuzzier; the throw that isn't perfect, and might cost a stroke 20% of the time. Is that an error? Do it once, and it probably won't cost a stroke. Do it multiple times on a long hole, and it might. And that's what we find on a number of holes out here.

P.S. if you go through our course photos to look at those holes---which I can't imagine you would do---the hole numbers are out of sync. This is the result of trying to squeeze 2 overlapping layouts into a website note designed for it, and a recent re-numbering. Ignore the DGCR hole numbers, and read the descriptions. Diamond 6 is described as "Hole 6". Quartz 15 is described as "17A (Quartz)".
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  #3463  
Old 01-13-2019, 08:07 AM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Sorry for the essay. I can be concise when discussion hole design, in general. Caveat about asking me about hole design at Stoney Hill.
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  #3464  
Old 01-13-2019, 08:55 AM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Sounds like a 5 and a 4 to me.

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  #3465  
Old 01-13-2019, 09:02 AM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Looking at the pics I can see Hole 6 conceptually as a difficult Par 4. 17 is a par 4 all the way.
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  #3466  
Old 01-13-2019, 09:06 AM
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On the bright side---within the parameters we're using, which is the entire open division at our events---only once have the results indicated that one of our Par 3s should clearly be a Par 2.

Though I imagine there'd be a bunch of them if we had a 1000-rated field.
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  #3467  
Old 01-18-2019, 11:02 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Testing a method.

Bold predictions for the Las Vegas Challenge (LVC) Disc Golf Tournament presented by Innova Champion Discs:

The two holes that are changing pars - Factory Store (was Terrex) #14 from par 4 to par 3, and Infinite Discs (was DGV) #9 from par 3 to par 4 – will have accurate pars.

None of the other hole changes will be enough to warrant a change in par.

Eight of the other holes - Factory Store #2, Factory Store #11, Factory Store #12, Factory Store #18, Infinite Discs #3, Infinite Discs #8, Innova #9, and Innova #14 - will continue to have par 1 too high.
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  #3468  
Old 01-18-2019, 02:25 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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As you might expect, Phil’s so-called “12 under” bothered me. I’d say he got a 60 on a par 69 course, not on a par 72 course. Explain to me why these holes should be par 5.
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  #3469  
Old 01-19-2019, 11:00 PM
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They are par 5s because the designer said so. That's the end. Golf doesn't use scoring to determine par. And it wasn't so called, it simply was 12 under par.

If the ownership or management of a golf course believes a hole is too easy relative to par, the par isn't changed. Instead, the Hoke is either lengthened or some design change is made.


Steve, you struggle with par because you came into this not really understanding it, and refuse to change your misunderstandings despite what you see over and over again.
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  #3470  
Old 01-19-2019, 11:47 PM
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TAFL TAFL is offline
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You really seem to struggle with the idea of par because you don't seem to understand the definition of it. That definition is actually not "whim of the designer," although that is what we end up with some of the time. I hate to be the person to burst your little bubble, yet I also feel compelled to report there is no Easter Bunny nor Santa Claus, either.
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