Go Back   Disc Golf Course Review > General Disc Golf Discussions > General Disc Golf Chat

View Poll Results: Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open?
A par 2 where 38% of throws are errors, and 1% of throws are hero throws. 6 25.00%
A par 3 where 24% of throws are errors, and 33% of throws are hero throws. 16 66.67%
A par 4 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 23% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes. 0 0%
A par 6 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 62% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #3471  
Old 01-20-2019, 07:39 AM
DavidSauls's Avatar
DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Newberry, SC
Years Playing: 23.7
Courses Played: 125
Posts: 14,603
Niced 2,462 Times in 1,166 Posts
Default

Well, it's certainly a simpler process if you ignore the definition, or make no attempt to conform to it.

Perhaps we should make the distinction and not say, "par on this hole is wrong", but that "par on this hole is contrary to the definition". Myself, I'm not bright enough to see the distinction, but it'll probably help those who can.
Sponsored Links
Reply With Quote
  #3472  
Old 01-20-2019, 09:54 AM
Cgkdisc's Avatar
Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Twin Cities
Years Playing: 30
Courses Played: 669
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 11,892
Niced 1,176 Times in 553 Posts
Default

There are two well-defined groups on this topic: the PARDANTIC camp (traditional golf) and the PARTISTIC camp (using data to determine). I'm in the PARTICULAR group as a designer who walks between the camps depending on the situation.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #3473  
Old 01-20-2019, 11:20 AM
PMantle's Avatar
PMantle PMantle is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Alexandria, La.
Years Playing: 6.6
Courses Played: 48
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 4,838
Niced 694 Times in 484 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFL View Post
You really seem to struggle with the idea of par because you don't seem to understand the definition of it. That definition is actually not "whim of the designer," although that is what we end up with some of the time. I hate to be the person to burst your little bubble, yet I also feel compelled to report there is no Easter Bunny nor Santa Claus, either.
In golf, what you're calling the definition of par is never, ever followed. So, you're dead wrong. It's the whim of the designer, period. The courses are going to be par 72 or 70 from the get go. The so called definition has zero to do with it. That was an after the fact attempt to describe what designers do before having any real idea what scratch golfers would shoot on the theoretical course.
Reply With Quote
  #3474  
Old 01-20-2019, 11:59 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
Par Delusionary
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Years Playing: 44.8
Courses Played: 326
Posts: 4,562
Niced 1,271 Times in 649 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMantle View Post
They are par 5s because the designer said so. That's the end. Golf doesn't use scoring to determine par. And it wasn't so called, it simply was 12 under par.

If the ownership or management of a golf course believes a hole is too easy relative to par, the par isn't changed. Instead, the Hoke is either lengthened or some design change is made.


Steve, you struggle with par because you came into this not really understanding it, and refuse to change your misunderstandings despite what you see over and over again.
If it were disc golf, I would agree with your "because". However, I don't see anything equivalent to our "as set by the TD" in golf. Where do you get that from?

Obviously, a mistaken pre-understanding of a topic can limit one's point of view. I'm glad to see you don't think I had one of those. I had to start from scratch and look at official, original sources.

But, for the sack of argument let's look at it from your point of view: Wouldn't you agree that these holes need to be changed for Par 5 to be the score that an expert player would be expected to make for these holes?
Reply With Quote
  #3475  
Old 01-20-2019, 12:16 PM
DavidSauls's Avatar
DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Newberry, SC
Years Playing: 23.7
Courses Played: 125
Posts: 14,603
Niced 2,462 Times in 1,166 Posts
Default

I'm a little curious as to why ownership or management might believe a hole is too easy relative to par, and in need of lengthening or design change, unless based on results of actual play.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #3476  
Old 01-21-2019, 09:41 AM
PMantle's Avatar
PMantle PMantle is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Alexandria, La.
Years Playing: 6.6
Courses Played: 48
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 4,838
Niced 694 Times in 484 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
If it were disc golf, I would agree with your "because". However, I don't see anything equivalent to our "as set by the TD" in golf. Where do you get that from?

Obviously, a mistaken pre-understanding of a topic can limit one's point of view. I'm glad to see you don't think I had one of those. I had to start from scratch and look at official, original sources.

But, for the sack of argument let's look at it from your point of view: Wouldn't you agree that these holes need to be changed for Par 5 to be the score that an expert player would be expected to make for these holes?
No, because, I , like everyone else in golf, rejects the so called definition of par. Well, I don't know if rejects is correct. They don't know it because it's ignored by everyone that matters. Hell the Tour's slogan beginning last year and going into this year is, "Live Under Par". lol





Literally one tournament organizer wants tournaments to end up with a winner close to par. That's the USGA, and they host exactly one tournament per year for the top men.

As many have pointed out over and over again, within a given par, there will be easy holes that play closer to the lower number, and hard holes that play closer to the higher number. No one in golf cares.
Reply With Quote
  #3477  
Old 01-21-2019, 09:41 AM
PMantle's Avatar
PMantle PMantle is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Alexandria, La.
Years Playing: 6.6
Courses Played: 48
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 4,838
Niced 694 Times in 484 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
I'm a little curious as to why ownership or management might believe a hole is too easy relative to par, and in need of lengthening or design change, unless based on results of actual play.
Oh, it's the results of play, but they don't change the par.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #3478  
Old 01-21-2019, 11:24 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
Par Delusionary
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Years Playing: 44.8
Courses Played: 326
Posts: 4,562
Niced 1,271 Times in 649 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMantle View Post
Literally one tournament organizer wants tournaments to end up with a winner close to par. That's the USGA, and they host exactly one tournament per year for the top men.
Mis-stating the case you are arguing against is not a valid way to argue. (But you already know that, don't you?)

No one is advocating for a par where the winner is close to par (in ordinary conditions). Of course the winner will be a few or several under par, whether golf or disc golf, especially over a number of rounds. Par is "good", and winners have to be lucky and good.

Closer to par, yes, but not at or above par as you are misrepresenting.

We're just saying par would work better (and, by the way, would fit both sports' definitions) if it weren't set so low that every player in contention is under par.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PMantle View Post
As many have pointed out over and over again, within a given par, there will be easy holes that play closer to the lower number, and hard holes that play closer to the higher number. No one in golf cares.
Yes, there will be easy holes and hard holes. No one is saying all holes need to be hard in relation to par. We're saying there is a limit to how easy a hole can be before par should be lower.

Do you agree with that? Or can a hole that averages 2.5 be a par 5?

Just as there is a limit to how hard a hole can be before par should be higher.

You would not change the pars on these three golf holes, correct? You would also not adjust the holes to play harder, correct? What if they had been labelled par 3? Is it OK to change par to make holes easier in relation to par? Or, would you adjust these holes to play easier if they have been set at 3?
Reply With Quote
  #3479  
Old 01-21-2019, 12:14 PM
PMantle's Avatar
PMantle PMantle is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Alexandria, La.
Years Playing: 6.6
Courses Played: 48
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 4,838
Niced 694 Times in 484 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Mis-stating the case you are arguing against is not a valid way to argue. (But you already know that, don't you?)

No one is advocating for a par where the winner is close to par (in ordinary conditions). Of course the winner will be a few or several under par, whether golf or disc golf, especially over a number of rounds. Par is "good", and winners have to be lucky and good.

Closer to par, yes, but not at or above par as you are misrepresenting.

We're just saying par would work better (and, by the way, would fit both sports' definitions) if it weren't set so low that every player in contention is under par.




Yes, there will be easy holes and hard holes. No one is saying all holes need to be hard in relation to par. We're saying there is a limit to how easy a hole can be before par should be lower.

Do you agree with that? Or can a hole that averages 2.5 be a par 5?

Just as there is a limit to how hard a hole can be before par should be higher.

You would not change the pars on these three golf holes, correct? You would also not adjust the holes to play harder, correct? What if they had been labelled par 3? Is it OK to change par to make holes easier in relation to par? Or, would you adjust these holes to play easier if they have been set at 3?
What am I misrepresenting?

There is no golf hole that would average 2.5 that would be designated a par 5. It's just not possible. That's because golf course designers adhere to something not unlike the PDGA guidelines on par. Par 5s are going to be over 500 yards, so that is going to take two full shots to get on the green. Holing out from the fairway on a par 5 is just really rare. So, you're going to have two full shots to even reach, then you have the difficulty of golf putting.

I never said anything about what I would do. I just presented you with what happens and what does not happen in golf.
Reply With Quote
 

  #3480  
Old 01-21-2019, 05:55 PM
blake833 blake833 is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Covington, LA
Years Playing: 8.9
Courses Played: 104
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 151
Niced 161 Times in 69 Posts
Default

Just because he has an LSU avatar, please don't think everyone around here thinks par is just based on whatever a designer says it is. Most of us Louisianans do know that's not a great measure.

For example, there's a course in Baton Rouge where every hole over 200' is par 4, 300' a par 5; the course par is 76, but the SSE is only 46, or a 30 under. The designer may say an open 320' hole is a par 5, but unless you are just starting to play this game, you can probably set a more realistic expectation for yourself.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Par 4s - multiple in a row or sprinkle par 3s into them? ToddL Course Design 9 02-23-2018 09:47 AM
Poorly designed par 4,5,and par 6 holes and bad high par courses optidiscic Course Design 159 09-12-2014 10:53 AM
Cgkdisc and jeverett talk about par Steve West Course Design 53 05-05-2012 08:37 AM
Deuce or die par 3's or play for par, par 3's? BrotherDave Disc Golf Courses 14 04-29-2011 12:04 AM
Par and Pro Par for multiple tees with different pars? marcusmpe General Disc Golf Chat 6 04-26-2010 06:13 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.