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View Poll Results: Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open?
A par 2 where 38% of throws are errors, and 1% of throws are hero throws. 6 25.00%
A par 3 where 24% of throws are errors, and 33% of throws are hero throws. 16 66.67%
A par 4 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 23% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes. 0 0%
A par 6 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 62% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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  #3571  
Old 01-29-2019, 07:50 PM
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brutalbrutus brutalbrutus is online now
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
In the olden days (before 2018) the phrase was "two throws from close range". The disc golf definition of par never had the words "green" or "putt".

I'm OK with a method of setting par that uses +2 throws within a certain range (60-75m works far better than either 10m or 20m), but we shouldn't move the definition away from the actual expected score to an artificial approximation, even if it might often work OK.
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
No, we don't have to accept that. Just set a lower par. But ONLY if there truly are too many birdies, not just a lot of birdies.

Jussi is the master at setting up courses with a lot of birdies, but not so many that par should be lower. He builds for top level championship competition. His courses show that at least one possible future is courses with good pars, quality tests of top-level skill, AND a lot of birdies

Note that a hole could have 50% 2s and most here would agree it is still a par 3. That's a lot of birdies, but not too many birdies. That hole would also still be a decent separator. Making it harder just to get rid of birdies could make for almost everyone getting a 3 - which would make the hole worse.



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  #3572  
Old 01-30-2019, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
If you set par according to Gold level skill, any course can be Gold level. Sure, par might be 42, and it might not be a very good test of skill, but....

Or, with unlimited resources, all courses could have a separate teeing area for each skill level. All the tees on each hole could have the same par.

Or, we could have all tees have pars for all skill levels. That way, TDs would know what par to use when they hold an event there.

20 holes... never mind.
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  #3573  
Old 01-30-2019, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Or, with unlimited resources, all courses could have a separate teeing area for each skill level. All the tees on each hole could have the same par.
Some thoughts on multiple tees. Coffee hasn't kicked in at this hour, so they may not be coherent ones.

Of course, PM's right that golf uses multiple tees, and it works well for them. They can base it on expected distance for different skill levels, over one or several shots.

This would work for us on some of our courses, as well, but for the resources involved. And, perhaps, aesthetics (our tees can bit a bit of an eyesore in a public park, as it is).

Sometimes, not so well. Particularly on higher-par, doglegged, wooded holes. There's a landing area, and you can figure how far different groups must throw to reach it; but the dogleg after the landing area is the same distance for everyone.

The resources are, of course, a major limitation. But sometimes the design is, as well. We often put courses on otherwise bad land, and the tee may be on the one spot that will work for a tee. It may be in a narrow alley of trees, or with a low ceiling, where a shorter tee loses that, and a longer tee makes for an unreasonably tight drive.

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  #3574  
Old 01-31-2019, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Before any method can be developed, the terms Expected, Errorless, and Expert all need to be given meaning. That does not mean the method does not follow the definition. It means the method follows the definition by selecting one of many possible interpretations.
This is the same as making up your own definition. But you know that. What is more interesting is the following:

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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
No one screams louder or more incoherently than someone who fears being treated fairly after having gotten something for nothing.
If, when you read this, you hear someone screaming, then you might need the kind of help no amount of reading the DGCR forums is going to provide.
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  #3575  
Old 02-01-2019, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
If you set par according to Gold level skill, any course can be Gold level. Sure, par might be 42, and it might not be a very good test of skill, but....

Or, with unlimited resources, all courses could have a separate teeing area for each skill level. All the tees on each hole could have the same par.

Or, we could have all tees have pars for all skill levels. That way, TDs would know what par to use when they hold an event there.

I'm confused. I thought Par was determined by what an expert player is expected to score? If we're using an 1000 rated player to define an expert player, than the Gold pars would apply to all. That 211' would be a par 2 for everybody. Is there such thing as a Green, Red, White, and Blue level experts? What ratings would define those?
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  #3576  
Old 02-01-2019, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by BrotherDave View Post
I'm confused. I thought Par was determined by what an expert player is expected to score? If we're using an 1000 rated player to define an expert player, than the Gold pars would apply to all. That 211' would be a par 2 for everybody. Is there such thing as a Green, Red, White, and Blue level experts? What ratings would define those?
You are correct, Par with no qualifiers is based on experts. This could also be called Gold/Pro/Open/1000-rated Par, but these labels are not needed, because this is the one true Par.

There are such things as Green, Red, White and Blue skill levels. The ratings for those are 800, 850, 900, and 950. They're sometimes also called Novice, Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced. These are pretty well-known and widely used - safe to say they're a standard set of skill levels.

(I'm advocating for another one: 925/Pink/FPO. We'll see if that catches on.)

The expected score for these other skill levels is based on typical players, not experts. That is, they are the expected-of/errorless-play/ordinary-conditions score of someone rated 800, 850, etc. So, this par-like number works for other skill levels in the same way that Par works for experts. Therefore, these other par-like numbers should not be called simply "Par" but should be qualified like "Novice par", "Green par", 800 Rated par" or whatever.

Open events that use the 211' foot hole should set Par at 2 for all players in the Open division. However, a TD that is running an event for players other than Open players could choose to use a typical player for that division instead of an expert. For example, the Advanced division could use Blue par which would be more fun and informative for those players than true Par.
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  #3577  
Old 02-02-2019, 07:33 AM
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As debatable as "errorless" is to (gold-level) par, it really should be ignored for us Reds. These days, my errors are expected, and any errorless hole comes as a surprise.

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  #3578  
Old 02-02-2019, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
As debatable as "errorless" is to (gold-level) par, it really should be ignored for us Reds. These days, my errors are expected, and any errorless hole comes as a surprise.
Maybe so. Within my method, I use the same parameter for all skill levels:

On the toughest hole, each throw has at least a 77.7% chance of being good enough to be a part of a string of throws that result in par.

Over the course of the round, taking into account the easier-to-par holes, about 90% of throws will be good enough to help get par.

So what's the word for the best majority of your throws?

Or, what word for the stinky minority of throws do we add "less" to?
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  #3579  
Old 02-02-2019, 10:13 AM
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I was kidding, but much more seriously, many of us in the lower divisions are so wildly erratic that "errorless" is tough to quantify. That, or we have a really high percentage of "heroic" (for us) shots.

Skill-level pars aren't part of the PDGA definition, so I don't know if it needs to be applied as rigorously to them, anyway. It's easier to just think in terms of expected scores, not expected results of each shot.

I have mixed feelings about skill-level pars anyway, though I can be sweet-talked by any system that might label me an "expert". Particularly since I seem to have lost my "grand" and "master" labels.

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  #3580  
Old 02-04-2019, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
I have mixed feelings about skill-level pars anyway, though I can be sweet-talked by any system that might label me an "expert". Particularly since I seem to have lost my "grand" and "master" labels.
I'd question any system that offered me an "expert" label--perhaps if I can regain distance that the years have sapped, I might qualify.

And they can take my "grandmaster" status when they pull it from my gnarled, dead fingers.

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