#21  
Old 08-03-2008, 10:30 PM
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Three Putt Three Putt is offline
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Originally Posted by Nickwells View Post
No top?
Nope, technically it has no top. It is kind of like a lid style putter with the flight plate is in the middle of the rim instead of on one side. So with the flight plate in the middle, it really has no top. If you throw it backhand, it dives hard into the ground no matter how you try to throw it as it has no lift AT ALL.
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  #22  
Old 08-03-2008, 10:31 PM
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The PDGA has threatened to sue them if they don't stop calling it a "PDGA conforming golf disc." It's approval was denied back in October or November of last year, and you can appeal that. All you can do is alter the disc and re-submit it.

BTW, the reason it was not approved was because it has no top. The ruling was that a disc must have a top and a bottom, and The Wheel technically has no top and two bottoms.
If I was with Quest I'd say "sue me...and I'll wipe you out in the counter suit!" The advocate for Quest could argue that The Wheel does indeed have a top and bottom, only that the flight plate is sunken so far that they are hard to distinguish. If they ban all sunken flight plates, then several other discs would go, not just Aerobie's Arrow, but also Discraft's Banger-GT, Innova's Birdie, Wolf...pretty much anything with a thumb track or features that push the central flight plate somewhere other than on top of the disc.

Now if they clarify/alter the rules to dictate that the plate must be a certain percentage or distance from the center, but do so in such a way that only Quest's disc gets left out - that strengthens Quest's position that the PDGA is in bed with the bigger disc companies. They have an established history (with the turbo-putt) of banning discs that Quest makes that, while technically conforming to the rules as they are written at the time, have a structure that the PDGA (and the bigger disc makers) did not anticipate.

Maybe the rules should be changed to make the Wheel non conforming. In the same vein, maybe they should ban thumb tracks, or soft putters, or grooves, or translucent plastic...this of course will never happen, because Innova and Discraft have developed discs with these characteristics. But the PDGA doesn't hesitate to ban the innovations, however bizarre, that Quest has made. I can't say for sure that the PDGA is acting as an authority favoring the big companies over the small, but it appears to be a fair argument to make.
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  #23  
Old 08-03-2008, 10:39 PM
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If I was still a cynical kind of guy, I'd point out that the pressure for Tech Standards revision came primarily from Innova shareholders. Then I'd insinuate that they used the PDGA as a puppet as they had them revise the standards to crack down on the other disc manufacturers since legally Innova could not do it anymore. But I gave up being cynical, so you will have to connect the dots yourself.
Exactly! And I'm sure Quest's lawyers can connect the dots as well, and have told the PDGA's people that they believe that potential triers of fact can also make the connection.

I really hope they strike a deal however, as they did with the Turboputt. To have such a battle fought out in court would be terribly costly to all involved.
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Old 08-03-2008, 10:46 PM
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Really, I wish Quest would just stop making discs before they end up doing some of the things mentioned above. As of yet, they haven't made anything that is "innovative" in a way that is actually useful and if they sued and had discs like the Banger GT, thumbtrack discs, etc. banned it would piss off massive amounts of people; Exponentially more so than if they just gave up making discs altogether.
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Old 08-03-2008, 11:32 PM
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I don't think Quest is the bad guy, here. They're just doing what they should be doing: developing novel products that conform with the rules, as they are written. I hold the PDGA to blame for not developing a rigorous definition for what a disc must be to be legit. Instead they have been taking a reactionary approach: making ex post facto changes to the rules after a disc comes to market which follows the letter of the law, but for whatever reason the rules makers just don't like.
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Old 08-04-2008, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by MattK View Post
I don't think Quest is the bad guy, here. They're just doing what they should be doing: developing novel products that conform with the rules, as they are written. I hold the PDGA to blame for not developing a rigorous definition for what a disc must be to be legit. Instead they have been taking a reactionary approach: making ex post facto changes to the rules after a disc comes to market which follows the letter of the law, but for whatever reason the rules makers just don't like.
I agree! As a wheel owner myself, I must add that its a pretty useless disc. Why should PDGA be bothered to ban a disc that (I feel) most people would agree does not provide an unfair advantage? The only advantage it has that I can tell is that their competition has not made a similar disc.
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Old 08-05-2008, 12:35 AM
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I'll try not to get long winded here, because I like the dialog and don't want to cut anybody off.

Basically the PDGA did what its membership wanted it to do in banning the Turbo-Putt and The Wheel. When they did the Tech Standards Revision the changes they made were dictated by feedback from PDGA members. Really, what else could they do? So the whole thing was directed by PDGA players, who generally drink the Innova Kool-Aid and repeat what their Innova-sponsored Open Pro friends told them to say. I got an earful about how unfair the whole process was because I play in St. Louis, and the locals were repeating what their Gateway-sponsored Open Pro friends were saying about how the process was tilted to what Innova wanted. That's not an Innova bash, God knows they do more for disc golf before breakfast than I'll do in my entire life. It's just the reality of the little pond with the big shark swimming in it.

NOW...there are around 12,000 current members of the PDGA. It's impossible to know for sure, but there is an estimated 500,000 disc golfers in the U.S. As you can see, the PDGA represents a really small fraction of the disc golf population. So obviously, a really small % of players had their voices heard in this matter.

So the flip side is...if you don't play in PDGA events or local events that use PDGA rules, why do you care? Drive with an Aerobie Ring and putt with a Turbo Putt if you want to. Unless you are a player who competes in tournaments, you should not let the PDGA tell you anything about the equipment you use. If you do play in PDGA events and you disagree with what they did...well, I guess you should have sent that questionnaire back.
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Old 08-05-2008, 01:12 AM
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<<<<So the flip side is...if you don't play in PDGA events or local events that use PDGA rules, why do you care? Drive with an Aerobie Ring and putt with a Turbo Putt if you want to. Unless you are a player who competes in tournaments, you should not let the PDGA tell you anything about the equipment you use.>>>>>

AMEN, AMEN, and AMEN again.
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  #29  
Old 08-05-2008, 10:53 AM
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In my experience, regulation -- to a point -- forces greater and greater creativity in stretching the rules to their limits. I'm just curious to see what Qwest will do with the new rules in place. I expect we can see some innovative designs with larger-diameter discs (how would a Jaguar-sized disc with a Destroyer-sized rim fly?); more discs that utilize two or more types of plastic fused together; additional experimentation with rim configurations (I'm sure we all suspect that if Qwest had release the Monarch, it would have been banned by the PDGA, but I'm sure there are other ways to alter rims to get different properties out of the disc flight); new variations on rings, dimples, etc on the flightplate.

For instance, I can imagine a putter fused of two different plastics in a yin-yang type configuration. One half is stiff as a board and the other half is floppy as putty -- the disc would fold in half to pass the tech standards, but it would allow a golfer to grip and throw the stiff part and then the floppy part would grab the chains like a little spider monkey and just not let go.

Or take a disc -- any disc -- and coat the whole outside rim in shock-absorbing rubber so it gets zero-bounce off of trees -- perfect for those tree-lined alley shots, since it almost guarantees your second shot would stay in the fairway.

Or make a disc that follows the same idea as the wheel -- a perfectly neutral center of gravity -- and make a "Wheel v2.0" that has a flight plate that is even with the outside rim of the disc, giving it the true "top" that the rules require, but sink the center of the flight plate so far that it comes even with the bottom edge of the disc, essentially counterbalancing the center and outside edge of the flight plate so that the end result is a vertical center of gravity -- achieving the same goal as the Wheel while conforming to the new PDGA standards and hopefully being easier to throw.

Anyway, those are just the first ideas that pop into my head this morning, but I will look forward to seeing what gets implemented and what company(ies) are willing to forge new ground and experiment with disc technology.

I think discs will hit a limit as to how far/fast they will go under the current standards, but I think there is a lot of potential to develop specialty discs that are the ideal discs for various situations on the course.

I know there is a widespread trend for "disc minimalism" and getting to know your plastic, but I think the current #1 player at the time of this post -- Feldberg -- is the poster child for the potential benefits of specialty discs. He's got a huge bag packed with plastic, a lot of it tuned specifically for certain types of shots that other people might not have a disc for.

Sure, it's possible to make 3-4 discs fly 90-percent of routes. But as the sport gets more and more competitive, having a disc to fly those other tricky, specialized 10-percent of shots can increasingly be the difference between winning and losing at the elite eschelons of the sport.

And for those of us down in the trenches who probably never will be playing 1000-rated golf, a disc that stops cold when it hits a tree could still be pretty useful.
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  #30  
Old 08-05-2008, 12:18 PM
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If you look around, Innovation is happening. Quest and Gateway are still working on Dimple Technology (even though Innova continues to say it does not work) and Discraft put cross-hatching on the wing of the Impact, so even though the Monarch gets all the attention it is certainly not the first attempt at innovation on the wing of the disc. There is also a small company called Snap Discsports that released a disc called the Helios that has a 2.7 cm diameter and a 2.3 cm rim, so there is a larger diameter disc with the modern "big wing" (although admittedly not "Jaguar-sized"...) None of these innovations were outlawed, and I'm sure more are on the way.

Also, I was wrong about the wing length, it can be 2.6 cm and still be legal.
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