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Old 12-09-2019, 11:14 AM
robdeforge robdeforge is online now
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Default Free optional relief question

If I throw OB on a hole and then proceed to the drop zone, can I use free optional relief from the drop zone?
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Old 12-09-2019, 11:17 AM
Darrington disc Darrington disc is offline
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Isn't the dz basically a tee pad? That's what I thought so it's just another tee area with penalty?
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Old 12-09-2019, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by robdeforge View Post
If I throw OB on a hole and then proceed to the drop zone, can I use free optional relief from the drop zone?
I don't see anything in the rules that prohibits it.
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Old 12-09-2019, 02:44 PM
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Yes, you can take additional relief on the LOP back from the DZ.
"803.02 E No penalty throw is added if optional relief is being taken following a penalty taken for a disc out-of-bounds or above two meters."
One question might be, "Can you take the Optional Relief from the location of the disc in OB, assuming you can see it?" The answer would be "No." You need to take the Optional Relief from the one or more options where you are allowed to mark for going OB in that area which could be DZ, Last Point IB or previous lie, for examples.

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Old 12-09-2019, 07:53 PM
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Optional relief requires going backward on the line of play. 803.02.D: The lie may then be relocated by marking a new lie which is farther from the target, and is on the line of play.

The line of play requires a marker disc. 802.05.D: The line of play is the imaginary line on the playing surface extending from the center of the target through and beyond the center of the marker disc. The marker disc is either the thrown disc at rest or the mini placed in front of the thrown disc.

A drop zone does not have a marker, so it does not have a line of play. Therefore, you cannot take optional relief from a drop zone.

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Old 12-10-2019, 02:21 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is online now
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C. A drop zone is a lie. A drop zone is an area on the course, as designated by the Director, from which a throw is made under certain conditions. A drop zone may either be marked and played in the same manner as a teeing area, or in the same manner as a marked lie. A teeing area may be used as a drop zone.
Under the new wording of 802.05 for drop zones, they can be played like tee pads or like marked lies. The wording isn't clear, but I assume that choice is made by the TD in advance, and not individual players whilst playing.

Therefore could optional relief (free or paid for) be taken from a drop zone designated as to be played as a marked lie?

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Old 12-10-2019, 09:44 AM
ToddL ToddL is offline
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The distinction that drop zones can be played like tee pads or like marked lies allows the TD to assign them in a different fashion. It's the difference between a "drop zone" and a "drop spot". USDGC, for example, uses "drop spots" on several holes (7, 15, 17) and "drop zones" on different holes (2, 12). They are marked in a different fashion -- a single flag or stake or whisker instead of a line or physical tee pad (rubber/turf/concrete).

802.05 C vs D makes it clear that lies taken at tee pads and drop zones are distinctly different from lies taken at a marker disc. The TD marks it so that it looks like a tee pad or a marked lie, and the player throws from it as if it is a tee pad or a marked lie, but there's still no actual marker.


Here's a kink that would throw me for a loop, though: If a tee pad is under water, can a player take casual relief? Typically I'd say yes, but now I'm being a stickler for the precise definition of "line of play", so here we are.
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Old 12-10-2019, 10:30 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddL View Post
Here's a kink that would throw me for a loop, though: If a tee pad is under water, can a player take casual relief? Typically I'd say yes, but now I'm being a stickler for the precise definition of "line of play", so here we are.
Quote:
QA-OBS-7: What can I do about an unplayable, unsafe, or poorly marked tee?

If the problem with the tee is a casual obstacle that cannot be easily removed (such as standing water), you can take casual relief behind the tee. No relief is provided for other adverse tee conditions, though you can place a towel down to provide traction if the tee is slippery. If the tee is poorly marked, locate an Official or a local player in another group if possible to help identify the tee area boundaries.
So it would appear that the q and a gives the ok to relief on tee pads along 'line of play'.

Last edited by cheesethin; 12-10-2019 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 12-10-2019, 10:58 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is online now
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I liked the idea (while it lasted) that the 'line of play' concept only applied to marked lies. It helped delineate two conceptually different types of lies. The course designer/TD designated lie: teepad or drop zone, that is at a fixed predetermined location that cannot be altered, and is part of the course design.

And then the player created lie: the thrown disc/marker lie, created anew each time by the players throw, and then possibly modified by various rules.

Any rule committee member know whether this distinction has been intentional?

QA-OBS-7 blurs the difference, and I would say clearly opens the door to allowing optional relief being applied to drop zones and tee pads.

Again, any rule committee member know whether optional relief was ever intended to be used on drop zones and tee pads? I realise that it is unlikely to frequently be a worthwhile move.

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Old 12-10-2019, 12:00 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
...
Again, any rule committee member know whether optional relief was ever intended to be used on drop zones and tee pads? I realise that it is unlikely to frequently be a worthwhile move.
I will say that Casual Relief from an underwater tee has been intentionally allowed for a while. There was no proposal to prevent Optional Relief from a tee pad in the current rules.

The phrase "at any time" (in the Optional Relief rule) is pretty strong and has no reason to be there other than to reinforce that it is always an option. I'd say this makes Optional Relief from a tee pad OK.

Has anyone ever in the history of the game taken Optional Relief from a tee pad or DZ? Or wanted to?

I do think there is a gap in the rules as to what the "Line of Play" is when the lie is a teeing area or teeing-area like DZ. In a tournament, I would invoke 801.01 A. "If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision is made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness."

So, what would produce a LOP which is the closest to what "center of the marked disc" would produce? I see three options:

1. From the target to the center of the teeing area, or
2. From the target to the place where you plan to plant your foot (or the part of the tee line closest to where you plan to plant your foot), or
3. Perpendicular to the tee line.

Personally, I would allow any of these for LOP from the teeing area. The tee and most DZs are so far away that it won't matter much. But, it's the TD's and group's call, not mine.

Other ideas? How does everyone think LOP should be defined for teeing areas?

Should we build in to the rules a specific ban on taking Optional Relief from the Tee? A DZ? Both?

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