#71  
Old 05-20-2021, 01:54 PM
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"Key Turning" has always been used in relationship to the grip pressure on the flight plate to articulate the hand feeling during extension. To roll your wrist under (facing the ground) some people have described it as holding a key between your thumb and index finger knuckle and turning it counterclockwise.

I think that sword unsheathing is off-base, Navel... timing and fundamentals are very different.
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  #72  
Old 05-20-2021, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parbequeue View Post
(Not really about the free floating arm moment tho, sorry to de-rail!)
I think that we can tie it all together, man.

First, let's assume that the forward free-floating arm feeling is related to the weighted feeling of the lead foot pushing back against the ground. Let's also assume that the salient point of the key turn (or sword unsheathing) analogy is forearm orientation toward the thumb (opposed to being rotated open toward the pinky).

To begin the brace, the front foot should push against the ground diagonally toward the back foot (like setting up to twist a water bottle cap with your feet).





To push back against the ground diagonally, the tibia/fibula must be rotated toward the big toe vs the pinky. Since we're trying to deliver this pushing-against-the-ground force all the way to the hand holding the disc, shouldn't the throwing forearm be oriented to mirror the tibia/fibula?

This is also true for the backside. Notice how the off-hand "swim" move orients the trailing forearm to better mirror the trailing tibia/fibula during the lateral move off the back foot.

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  #73  
Old 05-20-2021, 02:49 PM
navel navel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyzerUniBomber View Post
"Key Turning" has always been used in relationship to the grip pressure on the flight plate to articulate the hand feeling during extension. To roll your wrist under (facing the ground) some people have described it as holding a key between your thumb and index finger knuckle and turning it counterclockwise.

I think that sword unsheathing is off-base, Navel... timing and fundamentals are very different.
I know that it's old. I've just never felt it like turning a key, no matter how good my hit feels. I'm really curious if I'm missing something fundemental or not. Would you mind explaining it a bit more?
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  #74  
Old 05-20-2021, 02:49 PM
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  #75  
Old 05-21-2021, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Waddball View Post
This is...frustrating. I swear I've read over and over about how the arm needs to be loose. HUB talks about how you don't throw hard with your arm, how you need to be "a big wet noodle", how you don't really throw the disc (strong arming) but just get your body in the right shape and it shoots out, and so forth.

But you're both telling me (and others, earlier): no, once you get into (or just past) the pocket, punch/karate chop/hammer it hard, using your whole body.

The legs, core, back/lats all tense up, but if you tense up the arm it no longer behaves like a whip.
Forces are reactive. The brace reverberates through every single part of the swing system. In a well-connected system, every lever must feel the push back against the ground, arm included.

When you walk forward, notice how the legs trade off feelings of looseness & tension. The just-lifted-about-to-push-against-the-ground leg feels loose & weightless right up until it tenses just before ground impact. If this leg were kept loose for the entire step, you would crumple into the earth.

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  #76  
Old 05-21-2021, 01:17 AM
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Old 05-21-2021, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
Disagree with this. More like throwing a jab.
Yeah sorry, I suppose a real punch would also be from the ground up lol. Jab is a much better word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SocraDeez View Post
How does the lower body get the system moving?
Stand in an athletic position and let your arms dangle completely limp. Now try and move your arm to the hit without using a single arm muscle.

You’ll have two options.

Twist (spin) and your arm will hug itself until you stop spinning and then it “release” to the hit and wrap around your body.

Shift back and forth, and your arm will begin to pendulum from the backswing to the hit.

The shift is clearly what we want here, and nicely illustrates the power between the two. Spinning only makes your arm as fast as you’re able to spin. Shifting forward leapfrogs your arm in front of you, accelerating faster than your motion.

That’s what I mean by the lower body initiates it all.

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Old 05-21-2021, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drk_evns View Post
Yeah sorry, I suppose a real punch would also be from the ground up lol. Jab is a much better word.



Stand in an athletic position and let your arms dangle completely limp. Now try and move your arm to the hit without using a single arm muscle.

You’ll have two options.

Twist (spin) and your arm will hug itself until you stop spinning and then it “release” to the hit and wrap around your body.

Shift back and forth, and your arm will begin to pendulum from the backswing to the hit.

The shift is clearly what we want here, and nicely illustrates the power between the two. Spinning only makes your arm as fast as you’re able to spin. Shifting forward leapfrogs your arm in front of you, accelerating faster than your motion.

That’s what I mean by the lower body initiates it all.

This is solid. Something to add - if you add someone who has been spinning (like I have), this idea of shifting can take a long time to get a feel for. Something that can help is to do what drk_evans is describing with your butt up against a wall. Get in that athletic stance, butt against the wall and shift back and forth. Just be careful because when you do it right your arm will come flying forward and just smoke the wall.


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Old 05-21-2021, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drk_evns View Post
You’ll have two options.

Twist (spin) and your arm will hug itself until you stop spinning and then it “release” to the hit and wrap around your body.

Shift back and forth, and your arm will begin to pendulum from the backswing to the hit.
These motions are not as exclusive as you think. Shifting creates more force against the ground but it must do so in the same sequence as the spin. It's subtle but true. Shift to spin more powerfully.

Spinning from a standstill position is the same motion as walking forward without moving the legs. But in the spin, the ground pressure of the lead foot/leg goes from toe to heel (vs heel to toe) in order to stop the forward momentum.

The football juke is a good analogy to get the feeling of the shift, but the not-obvious bit of the analogy is that adding rotational torque ("flipping the hips") creates a more powerful juke. Spin to shift more powerfully.

These things are more related than they are different.




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  #80  
Old 05-21-2021, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azplaya25 View Post
It’s also like putting - which some people call a push, while Dave D insists it’s a pull.
Physiologically every push is a pull.

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