#91  
Old 05-22-2021, 10:19 AM
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azplaya25 azplaya25 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWoj View Post
A lot of what I'm reading here seems to me to be capable of being learned from the hand back. I like to teach the sport from the grip upward.

Step 1 - Teach a proper grip.

Step 2 - Build out a clean release with a firm pop from a forearm-forward motion, find what minimizes snap and pops out. I think this helps with a lot of what has been discussed regarding use of heavier objects to get the body to feel what it needs to do. You're getting the pop out of that elbow-down movement, which provides less support for the heft of the disc. So you find the snap easier.

Step 3 - Start building the arm into it.

Step 4 - Start building the body into it.

Step 5 - Develop the timing of the footwork.

Very oversimplified, but I think folk get the gist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
Learning from scratch I'd say this is the order:
1. More Snap 2009 1 and 2 (I've probably watched these 100 times and read the thread)
2. Grip & Alignment, also see(Grip it to Rip it article)
3. Closed Shoulder Drill
4. Reciprocating Dingle Arm
5. Power of Posture
6. Door Frame 1 and 2
7. Crush the Can 1 and 2
8. Bottles & Cans
9. Hershyzer Wall Drill
10. Door Frame part 3
Nice list of videos/drills to follow this sequence
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  #92  
Old 05-23-2021, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by SocraDeez View Post
When we are young, gravity can be a great foe. How tense & stiff & uncertain are our legs when we first learn to resist his pull. When we are old, our movements are more sure but also weathered by his great weight. Somewhere in between, we forget*.

*Recall the Sphinx's riddle: "What goes on four feet in the morning, two feet at noon, and three feet in the evening?"

The secret is in the dirt.

Let's try to marry the two ideas of "shift" & "spin". Let's let the ground officiate because he always tells the truth.

First, the spin or twist: Stand in your normal about-to-walk stance & start a-twistin' the torso with feet on the ground. Try to get a little rhythm going & allow the arms to swing freely. Here's Ace Ventura to demonstrate.



Feel the pressure shoot around your feet as your body pushes against the ground & creates the force couples necessary to spin. When you rotate to the left, the pressure will be greatest in the left heel & the right toe. With the left heel, you are pushing diagonally backward against the ground. With the right toe, you are pushing diagonally forward against the ground. These forces oppose & strengthen each other. Consider how you might pinch to twist off a bottle cap.

When you come back around to the right side, the system reverses and pressure will shoot from the heel to the toe on the left as it goes toe to heel on the right. After a few rep.s, allow the heels (& toes in between) to lift as the pressure trades places within the system from one extreme to the other (twisted all the way left vs all the way right). Feel the increase in pressure this creates in the heel still contacting the ground. The more weight you can shift from one contact-point-with-the-ground from another while keeping the sequence the same, the more juice you create in the system. Shift to spin more powerfully.

Now, the shift: It's essentially a lateral push against the ground toward the target from one foot to another. Here's Paige Pierce to demonstrate.



Try shifting laterally back and forth like this. Feel how hard you must push against the ground to send your weight back the way it came (not just catch it!). This creates some serious juice. Try to pause before each shift back. Your hips might swivel or rotate as you shift but they won't necessarily do so. Most people seem to be most comfortable shifting laterally from the "front", meaning the back toe leaves the ground with the back hip already cleared or in front of it & before the back heel starts moving forward.

But we can create more leverage-against-the-ground (and thereby shift with more power) if we initiate the move from "behind", or when the back hip is yet to clear (& with the heel moving forward before the toe as a result).

Let's emphasize the different feelings. Slowly shift laterally back and forth while keeping the hips pointed straight ahead (do not allow them to swivel). Feel the pressure produced against the ground.

Now, allow the hips to swivel around the feet as you shift back and forth. You should feel an increase in pressure that shoots from toe to heel as each hip moves around each foot. You have created more leverage by rotating. Recall how similar this is to the feeling from the twist & spin exercise which creates extra pressure in each heel pushing against the ground diagonally away from the COG. Spin to shift more powerfully.

The correct combination of these two ideas of "spinning" & "shifting" produces most of the power in the disc golf swing (plus some related vertical forces). You can feel it in the dirt.

Try spinning back and forth again while allowing the heels to lift. But this time when you rotate toward the back side and feel the pressure mount in the heel as the back hip rotates back toward the target (& it feels like all your weight is funneled into your heel pushing against the ground backwards diagonally), catch it & remain in that position. Then, while maintaining the torque, shift the weight caught in the back heel as hard as you can (maybe not too hard but we're trying to exaggerate the feeling) toward the toes of the opposite foot as they plant and push back diagonally toward the now everted rear foot. The heel of the lead foot will smash down reactively & initiate the spin. This is shifting from behind.



Definitely, but I think it's important to always consider the "hand back" to what - the ground. Stand up & raise your hand - not half-heartedly but really high because you're sure you know the answer. Pressure will build in the opposite heel as it tries to thrust through the ground as the hand shoots skyward. Get it?
Throw a disc without shifting.
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  #93  
Old 05-23-2021, 05:31 PM
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SocraDeez SocraDeez is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drk_evns View Post
Throw a disc without shifting.


Not sure you quite get it, man. I'm not trying to contradict your advice; I'm just trying to put a little touch on it. It's hard to figure this stuff out on your own, and I think there's a little more nuance at play here.

These things are more related than they are different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drk_evns View Post
You’ll have two options.

Twist (spin) and your arm will hug itself until you stop spinning and then it “release” to the hit and wrap around your body.

Shift back and forth, and your arm will begin to pendulum from the backswing to the hit.

The shift is clearly what we want here, and nicely illustrates the power between the two...

That’s what I mean by the lower body initiates it all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drk_evns View Post
twisting without shift is meaningless.
It's less about doing one thing vs. the other, and more about understanding how these motions might complement one another to produce power in the disc golf swing. A useable metaphor might be the distinction b/w walking & running: when you go from a walk to a run, you are adding some juice to the same mechanism*.

*I know there are some differences from adding juice to this system - optimal strike point, locked/loose knees vs. tense knees etc. - but this is an alright metaphor.

The not-obvious point here is that you also use your lower body to initiate the twist (spin), though it's tougher to feel. In fact, you twist (spin) by using your lower body in a specific sequence of ground pushes. This sequence is remarkably similar to attempting to walk forward with each leg without actually doing so ("You walk in your swing!").

Shifting obviously adds power to the swing, but part of the trick is to shift while keeping this ground push sequence mostly the same. More contact points with the ground make it easier to preserve the spin sequence but shifting from contact point to contact point makes the sequence more powerful. So when you start trying to shift, you might misstep by, for example, shifting from in "front" because it seems easier/ more comfortable. The twist (spin) might actually help some people better understand the concept of shifting from behind.

Beyond this, I am also making the point that creating rotational torque with the foot-knee-hip-shoulder (again, just as you do when you twist all the way to one side vs. another) that initiates the shift actually adds power to the shift by creating more leverage against the ground (you can feel it going backwards/downwards/diagonally from the COG).

A popular explosive shift drill involves holding a medicine ball outside of the leg you are shifting from. This drill helps to feel how inducing rotational torque creates more powerful leverage against the ground. Also check out how world-record-holder Javier Sotomayor twists at the end of his run up to create leverage/ "shift from behind" in this high jump:



These things are more related than they are different, which is probably why they seem to cause schism so readily.

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  #94  
Old 05-23-2021, 08:51 PM
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My point is if you focus on the shift, spinning happens. If you focus on the spinning, the same isn’t true.

You don’t need to understand every detail of the movement because many of them are byproducts of one big move.
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  #95  
Old 05-23-2021, 09:13 PM
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I guess part of my problem with the way you’re presenting the information isn’t necessarily that the content is wrong. There is absolutely twisting or spinning that happens in the throw... I acknowledge this.

My response is always to focus on the shift because I don’t think in-depth analysis and hyper focus on each part of the swing is the answer to improving.

I love discussing form here, but lately I try to avoid getting in the weeds when it comes to minor details. (It’s something I’ve done a lot in the past)

SW always says to start with a “free wheeling” version of your form and refine from there. It couldn’t be more spot on.

When I started to let go of trying to think every body part into position during the swing, I began to function as one unit rather than a bunch of individual parts.

To me it comes down to two major parts: rocking the hips and whipping your arm to a point.

I could spend (and have spent) years here trying to describe these movements through text... but I’ve realized I can do the same in person in much less time. Maybe even minutes to understand it (often much longer to implement).

I appreciate the discussion and depth you provide here, but I think there’s a balance of detail and feel for those who don’t already “get it.” Hindsight is truly a factor in cases like these. I learned MANY things before I understood them.


Last edited by drk_evns; 05-23-2021 at 09:17 PM.
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  #96  
Old 05-24-2021, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
More like throwing a jab.
What about an Ali jab? One of the most powerful jabs of all time, and famous for jabbing with his backfoot in the air (very unconventional).







Also check out this "only Ali" move - a jab followed by a cross with the back leg totally behind. Looks familiar!


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  #97  
Old 05-24-2021, 12:15 PM
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I don't know much about punching mechanics, but the leg in the air indicates a quick shift and all weight to the front to my eyes. Those jabs look like a real snappy putt.

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  #98  
Old 05-24-2021, 12:34 PM
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I think that to my mind, the easiest way to explain the reason for the free-floating arm and where it fits into the equation boils down to this:

In a forehand or baseball pitch, the primary indicator for power generation is hip separation (closed hips drive forward) moving away from the ball. There's then a huge physical constraint that is your shoulder/chest opening that creates a long whipping motion with your arm down to your fingers.

In a backhand, we have a pretty terrible physical constraint for generating power - so we're left with a very small window of options where we can effectively create this whip. From personal experience, the following items will all reduce the constraint or acceleration:

1. You let your frontside collapse/mush.
2. You let your off-arm get wide.
3. You take a stride that's too long to resist against.

When the "floating-arm" is moving into place, we're saying that you're not trying to move it independently of the greater system. The muscles and body are trying to get into this place:



You've built up a tension along the black thick lines, so that the muscles and connective tissues are tightening like a bow being drawn tighter and tighter. I drew the loose off arm in order to spell out how much of the structure across your shoulders gets lost if you have that off arm swinging out wide.
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  #99  
Old 05-24-2021, 02:07 PM
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azplaya25 azplaya25 is offline
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I think SW22 explains exactly what we are talking about starting at 8 minutes here. Much easier to feel with a hammer. As HUB mentioned, if your brace is mushy, it isn’t going to happen.

https://youtu.be/Q5xfv9jPqZs

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  #100  
Old 05-27-2021, 12:53 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyV8411dObw&t=5m40s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myqvUjT97BQ#t=40m2s




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