#101  
Old 06-12-2021, 11:34 AM
txmxer txmxer is offline
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Originally Posted by Rastnav View Post
So, if your disc came to rest on the ground in front of that 1/2” high rock, you believe it would be illegal to take a stance on the rock behind it?
No. No idea what you are actually suggesting honestly.

Would appreciate it if you would actually read what I wrote and respond to it.
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  #102  
Old 06-12-2021, 02:49 PM
John Rock John Rock is offline
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If the disc on the upper surface is more than 2m above the lower surface (and the 2m rule is in play), would you be penalized for marking and playing on the lower surface?
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  #103  
Old 06-12-2021, 05:17 PM
coupe coupe is offline
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Originally Posted by John Rock View Post
If the disc on the upper surface is more than 2m above the lower surface (and the 2m rule is in play), would you be penalized for marking and playing on the lower surface?
Yes. You WOULD be penalized for marking and playing on the lower surface, but not for a 2m violation.

Per 805.01 Establishing a Position
Quote:
C. If a disc first comes to rest above or below the playing surface, its position is on the playing surface directly below or above the disc,
you would be penalized for a misplay:

811 Misplay
Quote:
F. 1 Incorrect Lie. The player has played from a lie that is not the correct lie. For example, the player has:

b. Thrown from a lie other than that established by the thrown disc;
If no subsequent throw has been made following the misplay, disregard the throw, play from the correct lie and add a penalty stroke; if an additional throw has been made following the misplay, add two penalty strokes and continue to play from the lie established by the misplayed throw.
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  #104  
Old 06-12-2021, 11:54 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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...but the front part of the disc has come to rest above the only playing surface which is below the front part of the disc.

Does only the front part of the disc matter, since that is where the mini goes? Is the position split? Does the largest part of the disc determine the position? Is the position no longer circular? What if the disc was barely touching the higher surface (maybe wedged under a rock, with most of the disc sticking out over the air)?
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  #105  
Old 06-13-2021, 04:36 AM
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peabody peabody is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
...but the front part of the disc has come to rest above the only playing surface which is below the front part of the disc.

Does only the front part of the disc matter, since that is where the mini goes? Is the position split? Does the largest part of the disc determine the position? Is the position no longer circular? What if the disc was barely touching the higher surface (maybe wedged under a rock, with most of the disc sticking out over the air)?

The disc is still at rest on a playing surface. The mini is for marking disc position.
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  #106  
Old 06-13-2021, 07:05 AM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
...but the front part of the disc has come to rest above the only playing surface which is below the front part of the disc.

Does only the front part of the disc matter, since that is where the mini goes?
This is my belief. Only one point on the disc is relevant to marking and that point is only above one playing surface- the lower. There is nowhere in the rules that prohibits a player from marking the disc under certain circumstances.

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  #107  
Old 06-13-2021, 08:07 AM
coupe coupe is offline
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Originally Posted by peabody View Post
The disc is still at rest on a playing surface. The mini is for marking disc position.
Except that for the 2 meter rule to be in play, a disc must be at rest above the playing surface (802.05.B), which is not the case in the scenario under discussion.

I would further contend that since the disc in this scenario is on an in-bounds playing surface (above 2m is not OB), 802.06.C affirmatively precludes the possibility of invoking the 2m rule to enable a player to mark and play from the lower surface.

Quote:
802.06 Marking the Lie
C. When the thrown disc is not on the in-bounds playing surface, or when the lie is to be moved by rule, the player marks the lie by placing a mini marker disc in accordance with the applicable rule.
Additionally, I would contend that logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules (801.01.A), specifically
Quote:
QA-LIE-1: My throw landed on a bridge that spans an OB creek. Do I play from the bridge, or is my disc OB since itΒ’s above the creek? What if IΒ’m on the bridge but over land?
A bridge is an example where one playing surface is vertically stacked above another playing surface. Each playing surface is treated independently. The bridge is in-bounds unless the TD has declared it to be OB, regardless of whether a playing surface above or below it is OB. If the two-meter rule is in use, it does not apply because your disc is on, not above, the playing surface. You mark your lie on the bridge, and there is no penalty.
also precludes invocation of the 2m rule to justify marking and playing from the lower playing surface.
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  #108  
Old 06-13-2021, 08:46 AM
coupe coupe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Does the largest part of the disc determine the position?
Logical extension of 805.01.D.

Quote:
Is the position no longer circular?
Based on the precedent of how a tombstoned disc has historically been marked (at least in this area), that would indeed appear to be the case.

[Slight tangent: although 802.06.B specifies that a mini marker may be placed touching "the front of the thrown disc on the line of play," it does NOT require the mini to be placed centered on the LOP. [BTW, how does one place a marker disc on the LOP since, by definition (802.05.D), the LOP doesn't exist until the marker disc is placed? ] Since "the front" of the thrown disc is the entire half of the disc closer to the target than the center of the thrown disc, one could, in principle, legally place the mini anywhere along the forward edge of the disc up to the width of the mini of the LOP of the thrown disc, thereby gaining up to an extra 3"/7.5cm of clearance around an obstacle. ]

Quote:
What if the disc was barely touching the higher surface (maybe wedged under a rock, with most of the disc sticking out over the air)
Isn't that the logical extension of the question under discussion?
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  #109  
Old 06-14-2021, 05:34 AM
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rhatton1 rhatton1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
...but the front part of the disc has come to rest above the only playing surface which is below the front part of the disc.

Does only the front part of the disc matter, since that is where the mini goes? Is the position split? Does the largest part of the disc determine the position? Is the position no longer circular? What if the disc was barely touching the higher surface (maybe wedged under a rock, with most of the disc sticking out over the air)?
Forgive me if I've missed your response, but this one does intrigue me. There are valid arguments on both sides.

You ask lots of questions above and I'm curious to how you'd personally answer them?

As a member of the rules committee, how would you rule it if a member of your group had this lie and wanted to place their mini on the lower surface (as per Biscoe/Chuck's contention - and I think mine as well if the leading edge of the disc is overhanging)

This does seem to be one where a group and TD (if involved) could rule either way and not be wrong.
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  #110  
Old 06-14-2021, 10:45 AM
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chevis chevis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txmxer View Post
not ready to let this one go...on the lower deck, the player can choose one of two ways to mark his lie, both on the same playing surface.

The player on the upper deck has the same two options to take a stance behind his disc or behind a mini...but why is it he can stand behind his mini on the lower surface rather than the same surface the disc landed on?

IF the player on the upper deck is allowed to move to the lower deck, the player is getting unfair advancement of his position--he's much closer to the basket than he would have been if he played from where his disc landed. I think that is the crucial element to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhatton1 View Post
This does seem to be one where a group and TD (if involved) could rule either way and not be wrong.
rhatton1 was responding to steve, but i think it applies to txmxer too. stacked playing surfaces rules aren't defined enough to give us a definitive answer.
i would think you should be required to play from the surface you landed on & steve pointed out marking the lie says "...mark the lie by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface, touching the front of the thrown disc on the line of play." So then there are many examples of the mini not being able to touch the disc when marked & those should be addressed somewhere else; the focus of the current discussion is marking below/above when there are 2 playing surfaces.
in txmxer's example above, the LOP goes from one playing surface to another & they are stacked because you can take a stance on both. maybe the rule needs to clarify when there are stacked playing surfaces you must play from the one where the disc came to rest (if a reasonable stance can be made).

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Last edited by chevis; 06-14-2021 at 10:49 AM.
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