#591  
Old 09-03-2019, 05:52 AM
AshleyH AshleyH is offline
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Welcome! Thanks for joining the thread. I have really appreciated reading this, and learning a few things. I currently play FPO, but could play masters. I would love to have the chance to play with you. I'm sorry that you have been inundated with hate and vitriol regarding all of this, but wanted to show my support. Maybe one day the disc golf gods will smile upon us, and we will get to play together.
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  #592  
Old 09-03-2019, 06:02 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is online now
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Welcome! Thanks for joining the thread. I have really appreciated reading this, and learning a few things. I currently play FPO, but could play masters. I would love to have the chance to play with you. I'm sorry that you have been inundated with hate and vitriol regarding all of this, but wanted to show my support. Maybe one day the disc golf gods will smile upon us, and we will get to play together.
Thank you! I'd love to.
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  #593  
Old 09-03-2019, 06:04 AM
AshleyH AshleyH is offline
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Thank you! I'd love to.
Pro Worlds is in Utah next year, just saying. I live about an hour from the courses.

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  #594  
Old 09-03-2019, 06:39 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is online now
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I still see two sides to this whole story.

One is the personal level. You are feeling better now, and that is great. More true to yourself, i am all for that. It's amazing that we have the possibililty nowadays from a tecnical view but also that some societies (not all, yet) are accepting you as you wanna be. If you are happier that way, that's great.

But the other question is that of integrity of womans sports. You are not in a position where you transition and blow the entire womans field out of the water. Others are.

Rachel McKinnon became world champion after transitioning. Hannah Mouncey is just ridiculous, look at photos, she is like a head taller than all her opponents. Laurel Hubbard won gold medals left and right and the other women competing complained how unfair it is. There are more and more of these cases coming up.

You focus very much on the personal side and how great it is for you. You keep claiming how ridiculous the idea is for somebody to undergo such a transformation just for some gold medals. I am not saying the athletes i mentioned above just transformed for winning, but they ARE winning lots and lots after their transition.

As you said before, you went from a top 50% male to a top 5% woman while actually getting worse physical abilities like distance and stamina. Imagine you started this whole process as a top 5% or even top 1% male. In a sport that probably pays more money than disc golf. With professionals actually depending on that income from tournament wins.

I just think you dont really wanna see this side of the story. I see you very strongly emphasising the personal aspect. But you have to see the reality that many of us who dont know all the medical details and the personal stories of the individuals involved, all we see is the gender bender meme...
I absolutely DO know and accept and see THAT side of the story exiats, and could potentially happen for real.
I am not saying anything against the likelihood of that happening.
There IS, one day, going to be an elite level disc golfer who transitions.

I am just categorically refusing to accept the worst case scenario that this would happen SOLELY because of that player wanting to have a chance at winning in a gender-protected division. That's just not how transitioning works.
Rachel, Hannah, Laurel, me, and the other (openly or not) transgender people; try asking them (at gun point, if you think they'd not be honest enough if you simply asked them) why they transitioned.
Do you really think that any of them transitioned BECAUSE of improved athletic opportunity?!?!?!!?

All I - and several others in this thread and others - have stated time after time, is that the likelyhood of a (sup)top male athlete in ANY sport would transition JUST to win medals in a gender-protected division, is beyond unimaginable.

But I can't and won't blame you for thinking that.
For those "not in the know", it indeed seems as simple as "John says he wants to wear a dress, and is then allowed to play with Mary and Lisa".
Please take the word from a first-hand experienced person that it simply does not work like that.

First off, there are way too many negative side effects against transition in general, that will outweigh against the "yay, I now won this medal"...
Even just looking at the amount of vitriol and hatred I won for what is ultimately a world title at an event that is ultimately only "opportunity" based, not "merits" based (bring on the hate for that comment, I stand by that statement) heavily outweighs the joy of having actually won that title.
I don't know numbers, but I think it's in the range of 50-100 negative comments for every positive comment I got for having won.
And even then, I only went to AmWorlds to celebrate my transition having come to an end. I didn't care one single bit if I'd finish first or last.

And even, if that person would take all these negative side effects for granted.
* guaranteed physical health risks
* possible mental health issue due to social and relational ostracision, possibly ending in that person taking their lives.
* financial implications (wage gap, if employment even continues post transition)
ridicule
* physical abuse (check how many transgender women get murdered for being transgender women; I'd really be surprised if it's not already being used in court cases as a defense "sorry, your honour I killed that her because I was temporarily insane, when I found out she is transgender")
etc...

... the system is still considered a 'gate-keeping' system, where you actually need to "prove" through extensive psychological evaluation that you are indeed suffering from gender dysphoria, before you get the green light to actually start transition.
After that green light, you'd need to continuosly (12+ months), and uninterrupted maintain your low T levels either through chemical suppression, or through surgery (for which you only get green light if you: A. took hormone replacement therapy for 12+ months, AND B. have permanently lived as your desired gender for 12+ months), before your gender reclassification would even be considered for review by the PDGA.

My transition, from the moment I had the courage to look at myself in the mirror, and accept I am transgender, to the moment I got the green light from the PDGA, was 31 months, and that is considered a FAST transition path.

It's preposterous to even entertain the thought that for instance a 980-rated (only ever so slightly higher than Paige & Catrina, but light years away from Paul & Ricky) male player who'd never have a chance to win ProWorlds in MPO, would be able to just fake their way through physch eval AND take for granted all the negative aspects of transition, to be able to beat Paige, Eveliina, Catrina, etc. at ProWorlds.

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  #595  
Old 09-03-2019, 06:42 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is online now
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Pro Worlds is in Utah next year, just saying. I live about an hour from the courses.
If my financial situation allows (see just-mentioned financial repercussions of transitioning, I am close to bankruptcy due to not being hired), I will definitely look into play ProWorlds or ProMasters next year.

I have, as of last Sunday lost my meal ticket for AmWorlds, due to taking cash ($22) at an event, and I feel I belong in FP40 rather than in FPO, but I would definitely love to look into coming to Utah!
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  #596  
Old 09-03-2019, 06:49 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is online now
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But you have to see the reality that many of us who dont know all the medical details and the personal stories of the individuals involved, all we see is the gender bender meme...
Exactly BECAUSE of that, I am so incredibly open about my transition. Short of actually posting my blood works data, or posting photos of my underwear situation (don't worry, I won't), I am trying to maintain as calm a composure as humanly possible, in kindly sharing details that you would not possibly know otherwise, and in kindly and carefully debunking myths and accusations against transgender people in general, and me in particular.

I want to use the hatred and negativity that I knew would come from this in a positive manner, as a possibility to help raise awareness and visibility for the topic itself.
And ultimately, hoping for more acceptance.
And as such, having helped make for a smoother ride for those who are not yet, or no longer, strong enough to deal with the hatred regarding this topic.

Only when deliberately - despite me repeatedly asking to stop that - misgendering me, do I get a bit more stern and direct. But even then, remaining civil.

Ironic detail: (give or take 4-5, maybe) I got as many "I can't believe you remain so patient and civil through/despite all the hatred against you" as I got "congratulations on your win"

Last edited by gingerandhoney; 09-03-2019 at 06:52 AM.
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  #597  
Old 09-03-2019, 06:52 AM
AshleyH AshleyH is offline
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Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
If my financial situation allows (see just-mentioned financial repercussions of transitioning, I am close to bankruptcy due to not being hired), I will definitely look into play ProWorlds or ProMasters next year.

I have, as of last Sunday lost my meal ticket for AmWorlds, due to taking cash ($22) at an event, and I feel I belong in FP40 rather than in FPO, but I would definitely love to look into coming to Utah!
I can't imagine all of what you've been through, but keep on going girl!! It sickens me that you have so many obstacles to overcome, just for being you. I'm used to being the minority in disc golf, but you've got me beat for sure. Lots of love.

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  #598  
Old 09-03-2019, 07:13 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is online now
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I can't imagine all of what you've been through, but keep on going girl!! It sickens me that you have so many obstacles to overcome, just for being you. I'm used to being the minority in disc golf, but you've got me beat for sure. Lots of love.
I definitely am!!!

Here is the thing though, despite all the hardship I endured prior to transitioning (I had censored myself to be no more or less than a soulless robot pretending to be male) and during/after my transition.
I am told often to have become a pleasant person to be around, so socially there were only positive aspects, but I lost my fiancee and she took our pets with her, my son won't see me, my brother has cut all ties, I am close to financial bankruptcy, and I had to deal with the negativity surrounding my title...

My transition is also the best thing to ever have happened to me. And ever WILL happen to me.
I took the Red Pill, when I looked at myself in the mirror, August of 2016. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ1_IbFFbzA

Last edited by gingerandhoney; 09-03-2019 at 07:17 AM.
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  #599  
Old 09-03-2019, 07:36 AM
Smigles Smigles is offline
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Do you really think that any of them transitioned BECAUSE of improved athletic opportunity?!?!?!!?
No i dont think that.

What I do think is that (independent of motivation for transition) in some cases the individuals just are too strong for a womans competition and that this can have a negative impact on womans sports in general.

Individual rights and freedom of expression and being who you want is important. Yes absolutely. But I also think that the interest of millions of women who want to do organised sports are important.

Womans sports allready suffer from way lower viewcounts and therefore ad revenue and ultimatively money in the sport. Even if the entire transgender topic is regulated and the transgender athletes take hormone tests and have hormone levels that are within the defined borders, there are certainly some people who will not be convinced.
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  #600  
Old 09-03-2019, 08:04 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is online now
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No i dont think that.

What I do think is that (independent of motivation for transition) in some cases the individuals just are too strong for a womans competition and that this can have a negative impact on womans sports in general.

Individual rights and freedom of expression and being who you want is important. Yes absolutely. But I also think that the interest of millions of women who want to do organised sports are important.

Womans sports allready suffer from way lower viewcounts and therefore ad revenue and ultimatively money in the sport. Even if the entire transgender topic is regulated and the transgender athletes take hormone tests and have hormone levels that are within the defined borders, there are certainly some people who will not be convinced.
"you" is used by me in the broader sense of the word, not aimed at Smigles. English... :/

"just too strong for a woman's competition", possibly so, but that would then start the slippery slope again, where Michael Phelps would need to be excluded from swimming for yet another (Olympic) medal, because his body secretes way too little lactic acid, or moving Jeremy Koling to another division, because he has too much wingspan.

Devil's advocate, has any other FA40 event in disc golf history ever garnered as much attention as 2019 AmWorlds? Do you (broader sense again) know any other 1st (mine) or 2nd (Kerri French, many say she's the legitimate winner) place finishers at FA40 AmWorlds' names?

When talking about women participation in sport, and in our specific case, disc golf. Do you (broader sense again) think that transgender women are what is hurting female participation?
The PDGA, and specifically the Women's Committee, think there's way other things at play there. And they focus on doing what they can to attract, engage, and retain women to the sport specifically.
That activity does NOT focus on "making sure that transgender women can not disenfranchise women from competing"

And historically, the female participation grade of PDGA membership is constantly hovering around 8%. 92% are men. That is NOT, I repeat, NOT, due to transgender women.
I will hazard a guess, and between the open and closeted transgender women, there may currently be as many as 10-20 in disc golf.
I personally know of 10, including myself, the other 9 shall remain anonimous.

My and other transgender women's participation in gender-protected divisions has far less of a negative impact on women disc golf participation than the lack of tiolets at courses, max weight super overstable discs in player packs, commenting on women's looks rather than their skills on the fairway, a heavy focus on men's coverage over women's coverage (giant leaps in the right direction are made, though), constrictive caps on women's divisions, cat-calling, courses that are rarely suitable for women to compete. Etcetera.

Sarah Hokom is one of the most vocal players about how to make disc golf more suitable for women, and is making things happen. She is not alone in this, but she will take any opportunity to make it known to the TD and other invested parties how to make the event more woman-friendly.

How many men, outside of the "Laura is not a woman, she should not have been allowed to play in gender-protected divisions" are openly advocating FOR a better male-female ratio in membershio/participation, by doing positive things FOR women, rather than ostracising transgender women?

If men were indeed as taken with women participation as they claim they are (at least when reading all the comments on my winning that title), don't you think that membership numbers and women participation numbers would be much higher than they are now?

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Last edited by gingerandhoney; 09-03-2019 at 08:07 AM.
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