#51  
Old 08-12-2019, 12:18 PM
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drk_evns drk_evns is offline
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Originally Posted by HyzerUniBomber View Post
I think it's easy to lag a bit too much and end up with a overly disconnected hip to shoulder, which would be very hard to control.

I think the ideal feeling would be like if i handed you a car tire and told you to toss it up onto the roof of your house (extreme hyzer), down your driveway (slight hyzer) or high and left (anhyzer).
That makes a lot more practical sense... however, my theory is that feeling is way more extreme when you're used to muscling it, or pulling that arm through. After a while it starts to feel less extreme/cartoonish and you just get used to it.

It feels like my "center" gets way ahead of my head... as if the hips fire, they pull the core and arm and they get to the hit before my head even has a chance to follow.

I guess the arm/shoulder is lagging less than my head itself.
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  #52  
Old 08-12-2019, 12:38 PM
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HyzerUniBomber HyzerUniBomber is offline
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I think I'd need to see your throw - because it sounds like you're on the right track, I'd just want to make sure I wasn't seeing a "sloshing" effect.
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  #53  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:25 PM
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drk_evns drk_evns is offline
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Originally Posted by HyzerUniBomber View Post
I think I'd need to see your throw - because it sounds like you're on the right track, I'd just want to make sure I wasn't seeing a "sloshing" effect.
Next time I go to the field I'll record it.

Last week I was exaggerating this hip thrust forward on some throws and pulling it back on others. (in the original post on this thread, we'd be talking about step 3).

When I lean on old muscle memory, my head never really aligns to front hip/spine at the plant. I was throwing 380-400ftish with drivers on golf lines, and my whole upper body (core, shoulders, arms, head) felt connected to my hips. My head wants to look really fast at the disc, never aligns to the front hip/spine and is always trying to cheat a peak at the disc. Which also causes my shoulders to open early if I'm not careful.

When I exaggerate the hips, my head definitely gets pulled around chin first like SW describes. I was getting pretty good distance too. My Leopard3 to flew to ~450 feet on the throw I measured with a wheel, but I always subtract 25-30 to account for not walking in a perfect line. The major difference was that my hips and arm felt much faster. I felt like my hips fired and whip the arm to the hit point before my head even really had a chance to catch up or "cheat a peak." It's then pulled around on the follow through, like I think it should be.

This all sounds positive, but it does feel less under control. I think that's because it's such a new feeling and it'll feel more and more normal over time (like all things do). However I can see what you mean about the shoulders and arms getting disconnected and "sloshing." Would that manifest as rounding?
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Old 08-12-2019, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by drk_evns View Post
This all sounds positive, but it does feel less under control. I think that's because it's such a new feeling and it'll feel more and more normal over time (like all things do). However I can see what you mean about the shoulders and arms getting disconnected and "sloshing." Would that manifest as rounding?
It could, but you could also see your weight getting a little behind your intended vertical axis and then pushing past the vertical axis. It can also be seen as UP, DOWN then FORWARD with the down shift - as opposed to UP then DOWN & FORWARD. And then of course you can always have issues with collapsing the frame.

But truthfully, it sounds like you're correcting your "settle" timing and that feels slower than a typical "no-settle" or "too little resistance" throw. In fact, as we've been discussing in couple spots, the pre-backswing move of keeping the disc and shoulders very open seems to help delay that settle timing for me personally, and I am loving the results. It's realistically a change of a hundredth of a second, but what I get is a sensation of an easier reference point of where the momentum is in the frame.

I think SW agrees and promotes this - but having a dynamic system that's in balance is easier to dial into than a tight and precise system. I think once you've totally dialed in your timing, then it's fine to get away from the "free-wheeling" swing, but I'd still argue that GG is the definition of Free-wheeling and PMB is now on the other side of that spectrum.
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Old 08-12-2019, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by drk_evns View Post
Here's a feel question for you all:

When the hips shift forward to initiate the throw, do you feel like they are moving before the rest of your body? As if they "takes off" and your head and legs (and arm) are lagging behind and being yanked forward by that hip thrust?

When I first started doing this motion "correctly" (I think), it almost felt cartoonish ...as if Wile E Coyote had a rope tied to his waist connected to an anvil being dropped off a cliff... but when it is pulled, his head and feet stay in frame for a second while he gives the "oh ****" expression.
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Old 08-12-2019, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by HyzerUniBomber View Post
It could, but you could also see your weight getting a little behind your intended vertical axis and then pushing past the vertical axis. It can also be seen as UP, DOWN then FORWARD with the down shift - as opposed to UP then DOWN & FORWARD. And then of course you can always have issues with collapsing the frame. But truthfully, it sounds like you're correcting your "settle" timing and that feels slower than a typical "no-settle" or "too little resistance" throw.
I think I understand what you're saying about the shift directions and balance on the vertical axis. Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I agree that it's less of those issues and more about new feel. HOWEVER, I've been wrong before and will be wrong again in the future. We'll find out when I record again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HyzerUniBomber View Post
In fact, as we've been discussing in couple spots, the pre-backswing move of keeping the disc and shoulders very open seems to help delay that settle timing for me personally, and I am loving the results. It's realistically a change of a hundredth of a second, but what I get is a sensation of an easier reference point of where the momentum is in the frame.
AH! If I'm understanding what you're saying, I think I've recently found something similar. In my backswing, instead of turning back and reaching to out a point, I've started turning back and almost allowing my elbow to be completely loose. The forearm/hand/disc then fall to the peak of the backswing. Meaning, I'm not straightening my arm, but allowing them to straighten with momentum/gravity and a loose elbow joint. This delays the pull for a split second and allows the appropriate time to settle on the brace.'

To me, this feels a lot like Simon's backswing looks, if that makes any sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HyzerUniBomber View Post
I think SW agrees and promotes this - but having a dynamic system that's in balance is easier to dial into than a tight and precise system. I think once you've totally dialed in your timing, then it's fine to get away from the "free-wheeling" swing, but I'd still argue that GG is the definition of Free-wheeling and PMB is now on the other side of that spectrum.
This is has been more of a struggle than you would expect. From day one I've always had this idea of what an ideal swing is. I like the look of certain moves and the efficiency of motion in guys like McBeth and Gibson. It's hard, but I've gotten a TON better at accepting that as an ineffective way to go about learning. I often find that method makes you focus on results (ie - spin the hips) and not the important stuff (ie - you must fully shift to the brace before they "spin") which is often a lot harder to see in a swing.

I'm now starting to understand how you can slightly "customize" your swing, but only AFTER you've nailed the core feel of the throw down. It often looks/feels a lot messier doing it the right way... at least early on. I'm definitely still in the messy stage, but every time I throw it feels a little bit more effortless/automatic.

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Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
I actually just noticed today the shoulder muscles on my back were sore. The same ones that seem to be activated when I do the door frame drill. Usually it's more of my upper arm that gets a little sore when I over do it. This seems to also be a positive sign... I think it indicates I'm powering the throw without the arm trying to muscle its way in.

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Old 09-03-2019, 08:04 AM
Frisbee-Hanski Frisbee-Hanski is offline
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Was watching today this Mike Austin -video and it reminded me of this thread. Austin speaks for example about hip actions as pendulum motions:

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Last edited by Frisbee-Hanski; 09-03-2019 at 08:08 AM.
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Old 09-03-2019, 11:28 AM
RFrance RFrance is offline
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Originally Posted by Frisbee-Hanski View Post
Was watching today this Mike Austin -video and it reminded me of this thread. Austin speaks for example about hip actions as pendulum motions:
Looks like SW's Butt Wipe drill and SC's mirror and handkerchief drill. It almost looks like he is saying to move the right hip (for us it would be the left hip) out and around in the down swing.

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Old 09-04-2019, 12:10 PM
UhhNegative UhhNegative is online now
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Looks like SW's Butt Wipe drill and SC's mirror and handkerchief drill. It almost looks like he is saying to move the right hip (for us it would be the left hip) out and around in the down swing.
But I think that's just a consequence of the axis of rotation now being centered on the lead foot rather than a conscious movement of driving the rear hip? If the rotation isn't centered on the rear foot during the backswing then the right hip can't swivel back and out and if the rotation isn't centered on the front foot during the downswing then the left hip can't come out and around.
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Old 09-04-2019, 01:21 PM
RFrance RFrance is offline
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But I think that's just a consequence of the axis of rotation now being centered on the lead foot rather than a conscious movement of driving the rear hip?
This is what I was thinking of what not to do from another discussion https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...d.php?t=134700.

I think it is just this video of the Mike's (Austin and Dunaway) not showing the concept clearly. I think this one shows his version of the rocking the hips better.

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