#641  
Old 09-04-2019, 03:53 PM
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Discette Discette is offline
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Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
?!?!?!?!
Where does this come from?!?!?!
Is it because I have won events in Pro divisions? Here's a newsflash for you, outside North America, C tier events may be 0% payout. See PDGA International Guide.
You only lose Amateur Status if you accept cash in a Pro division when placing above the payout cut line.

Question 1. I never asked for Pro to Am reclassification. I didn't need to.
Until the day before yesterday (when TD report for last weekend's even had been submitted. I now have retro-actively been made pro per tournament end date, Sept 1st 2019) I have NEVER BEEN Pro.
Nor, for your information, have I ever declined cash in order to retain my Am Status.

Question 2. See Answer to question 1.

I have only petitioned the PDGA for a gender-reclassification (male to female), early 2019, after knowing I'd tick all boxes (per Dec 24th 20-8), and was granted that March 15th, 2019.

Forgive me for not realizing you just turned pro. PDGA records indicate you were playing in Pro divisions since 2010, hence my confusion. I guess when I read "reclassified" I was thinking Pro to Am not about the transition. Congratulations on your first pro cash!

And of course, Congratulations on your Am World title. The first time the Am Master Women's division was offered at PDGA Am Worlds was 1998 in Appleton, Wisconsin and I was part of the division!
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Last edited by Discette; 09-04-2019 at 03:56 PM.
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  #642  
Old 09-04-2019, 03:59 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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The IOC (and in our case, the PDGA, who followed the IOC guidelines, but did their own review) agree that the lowering of testosterone enough, for long enough, and continously, cancels out male advantage that might be had.

Lack of testosterone makes the male body a very inefficient machine. Lack of power, lack of stamina, lack of explosivity, to name but a few.
Arguments that men have larger/stronger/heavier/more X than women only hold up, possibly, when considering the average man and the average woman, and comparing them against each other.

Athletes are individuals, and per definition, sport is the celebration of physical excellence of the individual.

Arguing that transgender women with too large/strong/heavy X should not be allowed to compete in gender-protected divisions is a slippery slope you (broader sense) do NOT want to step on.
Ut would also force a division split between Paul McBeth and Jeremy Koling, and between Paige Pierce and Val Jenkins, due to their bodies being physiologically too different.

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  #643  
Old 09-04-2019, 04:09 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Discette View Post
Forgive me for not realizing you just turned pro. PDGA records indicate you were playing in Pro divisions since 2010, hence my confusion. I guess when I read "reclassified" I was thinking Pro to Am not about the transition. Congratulations on your first pro cash!

And of course, Congratulations on your Am World title. The first time the Am Master Women's division was offered at PDGA Am Worlds was 1998 in Appleton, Wisconsin and I was part of the division!
Thank you! ��
No offense taken. I was just really surprised this question even showed up.

PLAYING in pro divisions has absolutely no effect on player a status, unless the player takes the cash winnings.

Here is a few reasons why I played up most of my career:
I understand though, that in the USA, playing "up" is not done very often. In Europe it is common practice.

* In my country MPO was the only division offered for many years. We now offer 3; MPO, FPO, MA1.
When I felt I outgrew MA1 in 2015, I permanently moved up to MPO.
Many European countries offer about 5-6 divisions at their events.
Some countries, like Germany, offer no Am divisions in their tour.

* Due to arguments with TD's in the USA, about players not following rules (like practice shots and holing out), where the TD literally said: "well, what do you expect? It's MA3, only from MA1 and beyond, do people even pay attention to the rules", I had decided to - even when allowed - I would simply pay more, and play up.
* Playing up, I learn more.

Last edited by gingerandhoney; 09-04-2019 at 04:13 PM.
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  #644  
Old 09-04-2019, 07:15 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
* In my country MPO was the only division offered for many years. We now offer 3; MPO, FPO, MA1.
When I felt I outgrew MA1 in 2015, I permanently moved up to MPO.
Some clarification there is useful. Because that statement implies something completely different, when looking at it from USA perspective. And I am sure people would love to misinterpret that statement.

Until season 2011/12, there was just MPO, no other flavours, starting in Sept '12, for the 12/13 season, FPO and MA1 were officially offered.

In my home country, first of all, our players level is much lower, the group is much smaller (then we had about 50 members in the country, and about a dozen more casual players who were Neither PDGA or national association member.

When I made that decision to officially move up, I was rated 897, and finished top 3 in MA1 throughout the 14/15 national tour (my main competitors were about just below 900 as well. In that tour, all pro players AND any player over 900 had to play MPO.
MA1 was for <900 players, and that went from low 700's through high 800's.
And so I did, at the start of our new season, in Sept '15.
At that point, I had also peaked, ratings wise, with a 905.
Following the USA model of divisions offered, and pretty much *stay in your lane*, I'd have been labelled an MA3 player consistently.

In the USA, I would literally just have popped into MA2 by rating over threshold. For the majority of my career (ignoring that I *played up*) I actually *was* an MA3 player all the time, bar Sept '15 through Jan '16.
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  #645  
Old 09-04-2019, 11:00 PM
DG_player DG_player is offline
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Originally Posted by robdeforge View Post
maybe not in this thread, and I don't think you should be expected to defend a statement you haven't made. but this is a VERY common comment that shows up in basically every single discussion about transgender athletes.
To be clear I'm not defending comments solely meant to inflame or troll.

I highly doubt any male athlete would transition solely for the purpose of becoming an elite female athlete. However, if one hypothetically could, I think it raises some broader questions that need to be answered. The implication would be that there are inherent athletic advantages to being born male, and that it is unfair for cis women to have to compete against trans women.

I find the typical response of "no one would ever do that" to be unsatisfactory. It's a hypothetical situation. The question isn't would someone do that, but rather, could someone do that.

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  #646  
Old 09-04-2019, 11:07 PM
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Noill Noill is offline
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just a question then...

would having been a man make a transgender woman a better putter? That's what helped Laura win...her putting was on point. I believe I recall her saying that she was not out driving everyone as well so that wasn't it. It doesn't look like an advantage existed other than training and executing her shots.
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  #647  
Old 09-04-2019, 11:14 PM
DG_player DG_player is offline
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Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
First of all, any person is always allowed to play in Mxxx divisions.
In this particular case, a transgender man, aka "Female to Male" transgender man that would want to be reclassified for disc golf would normally be taking testosterone. Whereas transgender women have to meet requirements (in this case, testosterone below 10nmol/l, for 22+ months, uninterruptedly), transgender men do not have any requirements to meet.
They would "simply" ask to be reclassified, and with that, lose the ability to play in gender-protected divisions.
That transgender man is most likely going to be taking hormone replacement therapy (in this case, adding testosterone), and would start "building" the same advantages that transgender women are "tearing down".

This would mean in the transgender man's case (aside from surgical procedures like mastectomy, hysterectomy, metoidioplasty/phalloplasty) would start becoming male; muscle mass starts to develop in male patterns, stamina and explosivity start improving, and if the person is (pre)pubescent, bone structure could become (slightly) more masculine.

And not important for disc golf, but oh so important to the transgender man, male facial and body hair patterns start developing, male pattern baldness starts, voice deepens, etc..

Are any female to male disc golfers active? Possibly.
Would your cisgender men have an issue with a transgender man playing in 'their' division? I would hope not.

I'll state it again, but the very very vast majority of negativity I experienced during these last 5.5 weeks came from men.
It was actually the women who typically were between 'tolerating me' or 'accepting me'. I am not saying all women accepted me, but whereas I would say that about 95% of the men chiming in were yelling "unfair", "man", "advantage", only about 5-10% of the women who spoke up were.
So, by looking at it from the "those who would potentially have their lunch money stolen are expected to yell loudest" angle, the women seem to NOT react in that way, yet the men do.

Somehow, I think that toxic masculinity has something to do with this, but I haven't quite figured out exactly how.
My most avid and staunch 'attacker' (easily 200 messages by this one person) claimed (after about 100 messages) to be talking on behalf of his wife, but said wife has not spoken up in a negative manner to anyone I know (we actually have a few mutual friends)

And following the popular belief that "women are weaker than men" (only if you look at non-existent average men and women), then the men (who profess above statement most avidly), they would quite probably be "ah, whatever, so this transgender dude thinks he can beat us? He can't even break 350ft".
I'd like to see the WTF look on their faces when the added testosterone makes that person throw 400+ drives
To be fair I think there is some toxic and vitriolic discourse on both sides. Assuming you have any trust in journalistic integrity, there have been women athletes who have actually competed against trans athletes who have been unwilling to voice their opinions publicly for fear of backlash or being labeled transphobic. All you have to do is look at Martina Navritilova. If any athlete should have earned some latitude to speak freely in the LGBT community for what she has done on and off the court it's her. However she faced tremendous backlash for a few comments on the fairness of cis women competing vs. trans women.

I think it's possible to be pro-LGBT, and at the same time be skeptical of the fairness of cis- trans- women competition.
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  #648  
Old 09-04-2019, 11:26 PM
DG_player DG_player is offline
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Originally Posted by Noill View Post
just a question then...

would having been a man make a transgender woman a better putter? That's what helped Laura win...her putting was on point. I believe I recall her saying that she was not out driving everyone as well so that wasn't it. It doesn't look like an advantage existed other than training and executing her shots.
I'm not sure if this question was directed at me?

I really have no idea. There are sports though, that appear to me to have a minimal amount of athleticism required and no obvious benefit to being a male, where they still separate competition into male and female (think of billiards for example). Are elite female billiard players able to compete with male billiard players? I have no idea, someone more familiar with professional billiards would have to answer that question.

Maybe there is an inherent male trait that allows better execution of focus based tasks? How does the C1 putting percentage for elite MPO players compare to FPO?
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  #649  
Old 09-05-2019, 01:08 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
To be clear I'm not defending comments solely meant to inflame or troll.

I highly doubt any male athlete would transition solely for the purpose of becoming an elite female athlete. However, if one hypothetically could, I think it raises some broader questions that need to be answered. The implication would be that there are inherent athletic advantages to being born male, and that it is unfair for cis women to have to compete against trans women.

I find the typical response of "no one would ever do that" to be unsatisfactory. It's a hypothetical situation. The question isn't would someone do that, but rather, could someone do that.
Your logic is backward.
The fact thy hypothetically one COULD does not imply that there would be inherent athletic advantages.
COULD is simply whether or not the possibility to circumvent the system exists.

The hypothesis that there would be advantages stands disconnected in the relation to whether it is or isn't possible to circumvent the system. The hypothesis is just that, a hypothesis.
The question that should/could be asked is: "would anyone be crazy enough to transition simply on the hypothesis of the perceived advantage that we're to be had?"
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  #650  
Old 09-05-2019, 01:31 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Noill View Post
just a question then...

would having been a man make a transgender woman a better putter? That's what helped Laura win...her putting was on point. I believe I recall her saying that she was not out driving everyone as well so that wasn't it. It doesn't look like an advantage existed other than training and executing her shots.
A slight correction there. Yes, I repeatedly claimed that my putting was what ultimately gave me the title. I also repeatedly stated that Kerri and I were not outdriving each other. Often, we literally landed within 5ft of each other. The two of us (and she's as cis woman as they come, to my knowledge) were very clearly never in any real danger of anyone else going for the title.

I also repeatedly stated that the two of us clearly outdrove the other players on our card (3rd and 4th place finishers). The two of us would typically get pretty close to 300ft, while the others would rarely break 250ft.
Whether players not on our card did or did not throw as far as Kerri and I is unknown to me.

Whether having lived in a man's body makes for a better putter, I doubt it.
Putting, in C1, is mostly aim and confidence. (well) outside of C1, possibly a difference could be expected.
I don't have any recollection of whether she made any. I know I made 4 in 135 holes. 1 was a throw-in, 2 were literally from directly outside of C1.
The two putts that impressed me most, roughly from 60ft and 50ft were made, back to back, by Tammy (3rd) and Mila (4th).
Does being a woman inherently make for better cooking skills?

I never talked about training, btw.
I did talk about confidence and execution.
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